You know, I always tell people, I'm like, you know what? The one secret to success is that you, you absolutely have to know if you want to be successful. Like the secret is that Aaron Gwen is a mountain biking legend. He started in BMX in motocross before switching to downhill in 2008, where he got a top 10 at his first ever World Cup.

He's less than a second of how's Aaron Gwynn doing it. He has since won eight US National Championships, five World Cup overall titles. He has 20 World Cup wins and even won a World Cup without a chain with no chain. Look at the time, Aaron Gwynn does the impossible here. Gwen has had some setbacks over the last few years, but he is back and ready to win again.

I feel like I still can win Ken Zen the other day, and he was saying that, that he's, he's thinking about like coming over to Down Hunt and I could be surprised. I think he would have a really difficult time. I was like, I got a bike with your name on it. Just tell me when and where. And I was like, canyon, get outta the way.

He's mine. Let's do it. Getting to the top of that with Cody and just laughing and being like, dude, there's no way I'm ever riding down something like that. You're gonna die. Oh man. Like, I'd rather be anywhere else but here. I would've never thought that that was something that phased you. Who are some of the riders that you feel are like the Nast?

The very first name that instantly pops into my head that's not even close, I feel like to me is Sam Hill. I, I could never believe the lines that that dude could hold by one by eight seconds. I had different lines all over the track than what everybody else had, and I would just stand on the side of the track and kind of laugh.

What's been the best bike that you've rode? That bike was really harsh. That bike kind of sucked to ride. After you got injured in 2018, that season you were not yt. And then the end of the year, you mentioned just now that you didn't have the opportunity to continue with them, what actually happened there

Sweet. Uh, dude, Aaron Gwen, thanks for coming on. I wanted to jump straight in and ask you how does it feel to jump on the scene and get a top 10 at your first ever World Cup? Um, it, it was crazy, man. It was, uh, it, it was pretty cool for me. It was a, a lot of years of hard work, honestly. But it was like, wow, like I, I kind of finally am like doing it.

I didn't ever expect that it would be downhill mountain biking would be the thing that I landed on. Um. Growing up racing D Max, and then motocross was like always the thing, you know, through my teenage years that I was really aiming at trying to do for a living. And, uh, so yeah, it was, you know, I had a couple years of work and some really tough jobs before I got into downhill, so, um, yeah, I, I kind of always tell the story.

I'm like, I remember laying in bed, bouncing in that night. Mm-hmm. I think it started raining after the race and I was, uh, I was actually in like a bunk bed. I was up with, uh, Yeti and we were all shoved into like a little room and I was laying on the top bunk and the, the window was cracked and I was just listening to the rain outside and I was like, man, like crazy.

That just happened. Like, what am I, what am I doing? It was like pretty wild. But, uh, yeah, it was cool, man. It was, uh, man, a lot of years of, of grind and hard work and, and struggle and ups and downs, um, from basically a, a kid to when I was 20 years old when that happened to like try to succeed at making a living on two wheels.

And that was the first time where I was like, wow, this might actually work out. I think you, you ruffled some feather, some feathers that day for sure. Um, and, uh, before I, so I actually started down in 2010, um, and that tipping point was one of the first videos that I watched and obviously that, uh, that was in there.

Um, yeah, if you get in the top 10, I remember thinking like, man, that, like, that's, that's insane. Like, um, yeah. And like, I think it. It gave a lot of people a bit of false hope. Yes. It's like, yes, you can just rock up. Um, yeah. Yeah. Tough one for sure. I think, um, yeah, I mean, everybody knows I've told the story a bunch of times, but I think, um, everybody saw quick success.

But for me, for sure, it was, uh, man, it was, you know, 15 years of racing. I was 20 years old at the time, so 16 years of racing, basically get to that point. And definitely probably 10 years of like really working hard and, and trying to figure it out. Um, now that I'm a bit older, 10 years doesn't actually sound like that long anymore, but at the time it was, you know, half my life or whatever of like really trying to, to make that happen.

So it was, uh, it definitely was not like a overnight success. It was, uh, a lot of racing and time and effort to like, to have that quick success and downhill. For sure. I mean, you've obviously, you've touched on these, uh, topics before in other, in other interviews, but maybe you could just give, you know, give everyone a little rundown of how you, what led you onto the path of, of two wheels, you know, from, from a kid.

Yeah, I think from a kid, um, long story short, I guess I just had a ton of energy as a kid and my parents were like, trying to get you to sleep at night was just not happening. And, uh, so they'd take me to the park and stuff like as much as they could and just like. Run me out at the park. So I would, I would try to sleep at night.

And, um, one of the parks that we went to in Desert Hot Springs out in California, it was about 15 minutes from our house. Um, they had a BMX track, like kind of a join to the park. And I guess when I was like three, four years old, um, we were there, you know, swinging on the swings or something like that. And I always wanted to like, get on the BMX track and go ride.

It looked fun. Um, and so my parents got me a bike for, I don't remember, it was my fourth birthday somewhere around then. And, uh, took me to the track and just started riding and they were stoked because I would just do laps nonstop and then I would actually sleep at night. So it kind of, it kind of started there.

My dad definitely had a passion for two wheels. Um, I remember we, we always had this old, like broken down dirt bike in our backyard. I never actually saw the thing run, but it was back there for quite a few years and I'd always go sit on it. And, uh, he was really into street bikes when I was a, a little kid.

Mm-hmm. Um, even my mom rode before she had me. And so his dream was always to like race, you know, street bikes, um, yeah. You know, like a moto GP type of thing. And, uh, so he, he never got the opportunity to do it, but he always had bikes. So like when he'd take me to school when I was a little kid, he had a old, uh, Honda Hawk, uh, motorcycle.

And he'd throw me on the back of that every morning and like, take me to school or take me to the babysitters real early before he went to work. So, kind of always grew up like on a motor and two wheels and my, my dad being into it. Um, so when I started riding BMX, like I just, uh, dude, I picked it up so quick and I remember, um, I grew up out in the desert in Morongo Valley.

It's a really small desert town, kind of in the middle of nowhere, just north of Palm Springs. And, um, it pretty much always was dry, never rained. And I remember right around the same age when I was four or so, um, it, it rained one day and my parents went out in the yard with me and we built like two jumps and they were like the equivalent of like a roller basically.

It wasn't anything fancy. But, uh, pretty much from that day on, dude, it was like every day when I got back from school, I was in the yard digging and riding my bike and going to the BMX track and just, that was all I ever wanted to do. Like, our, our backyard, by the time I was like 12, was completely demolished.

Like every inch of our yard was like jumps and tracks and stuff. So my parents were, uh, really cool about letting me destroy the yard for sure. But, uh, anyways, yeah, so it started there and then a race BMX real serious till I was about eight, which, uh, seems like almost no time, but in the, in the matter of that four years, by the time I was eight, I was riding for a Dan's competition, which is like a big male.

Mm-hmm. Or a BMX company out of Ohio. They had a big factory team that I was on, and I was like flying around the country and I raced, uh, the A BA National Series and the NBL National Series. So it was like really busy. Um, did a ton of racing and then I was kind of just like at the point at eight where I was like, man, I'm, I just kind of wanna be a kid and like, Hey, on my friends a little bit more and not travel and not do so much.

Yeah. Yeah. That's insane. Uh, so yeah, I played baseball for a few years and football did a few things, and then I got into motocross when I was 12. Motocross was always the thing I really wanted to do. My parents were just both in the medical industry. Uh, my mom was a nurse, my dad's a physical therapist, and my dad especially, he was a physical therapist at the hospital in Palm Springs, which is the closest big hospital to like glam and Ocotillo Wells.

Mm-hmm. Which are like big free rotting kind of spots in California. So he'd see all the really gnarly injuries coming back from the desert. And I think he was always like, man, I don't really want you to be one of those guys. Mm. And so they, you know, and we didn't have a ton of money, so motocross was, was really expensive.

And we were, you know, we, that was gonna be a big stretch for us to try to afford having a dirt bike compared to a, you know, a bicycle. Um, so it took a little while for me to kind of convince them, um, you know, my dad especially. And, uh, but yeah, he got me a dirt bike for my 12th birthday and we started riding and um, sure enough, you know, within a year we were, we were gung ho man.

We were getting, after it, racing a bunch of races and chasing the dream till about 17. And, uh, had a couple of big injuries towards the end of that, that motocross stint. And I think I was just at the point as a, you know, as a man, like in my maturity too, where just the kind of the pressure, knowing my parents were spending every dollar and minute of time on trying to help me and just having the setback after setback and kind of, um, racing's always been something that, that has been difficult for me.

Like, just nerves wise, like, it's always been kind of stressful. Um, I love riding, but the racing side of things has always been like, you know, I don't wake up on race morning, just like, I can't wait to race today. I'm usually just like, oh man, like, I'd rather be anywhere else but here. And that's the, that's definitely changed later in my, in my downhill career as I've just kind of matured and chilled out a little bit.

But, um, you know, as a kid it was just, I, I think I. I didn't understand really, maybe fully what I had, and, uh, I just kind of wanted to not have to feel that stress as much anymore. And so I, I kind of went into just working some normal jobs from like 17 to 20. And I think during those years I realized pretty quick, like, man, I really wanna race.

It's a lot better than digging ditches or doing some of the other stuff that I was doing. And, uh, you know, I, I kind of thought that that window had probably passed. So when downhill kind of came up randomly and I was good at it straight away, it was like, I, I think I had a, a renewed view and appreciation for what I was trying to do and a love of what I was trying to do.

That kind of was like, I was more than willing to push through the, you know, the stress of racing to try to make a career out of, you know, what I loved. So, um, man, I was all in, like I was, um, yeah, I remember those first couple of years. Like it was, you know, I felt like I was, you know, I don't wanna sound cheesy, but kind of racing for my, uh, you know, survival or putting food on the table, so to speak.

I was like, I really want this to work out. Like I am gonna put absolutely everything into it. Um, so it was yeah, crazy that it worked out, man. I, it was, yeah. Wild. It's crazy like that. You, you say that like also with the nerves and stuff and how you, you know, you struggled with that, um, earlier on in your career because like.

I mean, that's something that I've struggled with and I think a lot of people struggle with that. Yeah. I mean, which in a way is, I guess, a good thing in a way. 'cause it means you care, but at the same time, it kind of makes it tough sometimes when you trying to perform at your best. Yeah. Um, but that's, it's interesting because like in those years, like 20 11, 12, like that, those early those years, it was insane.

Like, I would've never thought that that was something that phased you. Um, yeah. 'cause you always looked so like, locked in and it, it always looked like kind, I don't wanna say easy, but it, it kind of looked Yeah. Like it was coming easy for sure. Yeah. It's a weird one with me, man. Like, I, I perform really well under pressure.

Uh, thankfully the nerves don't affect, like, my performance. Um, not to say that they never do, like you're always battling it, but I feel like I've been really good at, at taking that and then just performing no matter what. But I wouldn't say it was like fun for a long time. You know, like it was fun when it was over and you got the result and you were like, huh, okay.

Like sweet. Like, and I enjoyed parts of the weekend, but race days were, were just always, um, you know, pretty stressful. And I, I don't know if you would find another motor sport if you have somebody that wants to win as bad as I wanted to win and put as much into it as we put into it. Um, you know, I, I would think that that was kind of the, the case probably for a lot of guys in other sports too.

You know, you're pretty mission focused, like, to get it done. So thankfully, like as miserable as I felt at times, um, when it was time to roll out of the gate, like it was no messing around, I could lock in and just make it happen. So, um, honestly, by the time I got into the gate, it was just a relief. I was like, finally it's time to like, throw down and get this over with.

Waiting in the pits for seven hours leading up to your run was like, not very fun. That that's, yeah, it's very interesting because that's the same way that I feel like, obviously I wasn't winning World Cups, but still it's like everyone I think feels it to a degree. Yeah. Um, and people would often ask like, you know, oh, what's your favorite race?

Or what's, you know, which race did you enjoy the most? And I think that's the same kind of answers. Like, I love riding, but the racing part, like, you, like the end, but like the result. But, uh, the racing part is pretty stressful and obviously even more stressful in your situation when, you know, you're, you're fighting for a championship or something like that.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And the race itself I think is like, they're just hard man. If you're racing that hard, like it's, uh, you know, you're doing something kind of dangerous. So there's a bit of nerves in that. You're just like, you're kind of doing something gnarly and you could get hurt. And then there's the other fact that, you know, like you're just gonna absolutely tap yourself out energy wise.

Like, you're just gonna run max heart rate for four minutes or whatever, and, uh, suffer your way down the hill. It's like, I've had some runs where there's things that happen in the run where you're like, oh, that's cool. But for the most part, it's like kind of controlled suffering until the finish line. So it's like, uh, rotting at that pace and that intensity level is, uh, it is fun, but it's a, it's different than just riding a practice lap for sure.

There's a. So much effort and preparation that goes into it that it's, it's kind of a, a weird feeling like you're, you're doing it, but you're kind of just going through the motions and focusing, at least for me on, uh, the effort you put out and then you cross the finish line, and then it's like you figure it out from there.

What was the, I mean, what was the secret, you know, in your sort of peak of your career when you were able to, you know, when you were winning like multiple world cups a year and like, because it seemed you, you kind of seemed like unstoppable at, at a time and everyone, everyone was, you were on the radar and, you know, everyone was talking about like winning and Yeah.

Um, you know, like you did some pretty ridiculous things, like winning by eight seconds pretty much involve the soul in a dry race, which is just like unheard of. And then like, winning obviously without a chain, which we'll chat about. Yes. But like, yeah. What do you think it was like your mindset, your training, like what do you think was the kind of defining factor that made you so good at that time?

Um, I, I think it was a little bit of everything. Um, I, it's funny, I'd been teaching some riding clinics lately and, uh. I, you know, I always get a group together and everybody comes and they, they, I think, they think they're gonna hear something from me that, um, is gonna completely blow their minds and like, change everything they've ever thought about bike riding.

And we definitely like break off some good knowledge. But, you know, I always tell people, I'm like, you know what, the one secret to successes that you, you absolutely have to know if you want to be successful. Like, this is the biggest, most important thing. And I can see 'em, they always get excited. They're like, what, what, what is it?

And I'm like, the secret is that there's no secret. It's like you just have to do a lot of things right for a long time for. For things to go that well, like to get that good. So it's, you gotta check all the boxes. Like I felt like when I was dominating it was, my speed was really good. Um, I think my background and the way I looked at a track was different than most people.

Um, especially when it comes to line selection and things. Um, I know that race and bow to soul that I won by eight seconds. Like I had different lines all over the track than what everybody else had. And I would just stand on the side of the track and kind of laugh when I watched the guys just b through the main line and just beat themselves to death.

And I would just be like, lining things up free turns further up to be on a different part of the track where it was super smooth and way straighter and way easier. And I just felt like all the way down the track. I had a different setup to everything where I just wasn't battling things like they were.

Um, and I was just good at riding rough stuff. Like I was strong. Um, I feel like my fitness took me probably three years to get to where I needed it to be, to win races. I remember when I first started racing in 2008, even at Mount St. Anne, I didn't feel like I rode my fastest there, but I just wasn't fit enough to, to ride to my potential yet.

So it took me a few years to get that. Um, so I feel like I, I looked at a track different, I had really good lines. Um. I had really good skills, I think from motocross and other things too, like the speed I could carry and like how fast I could hit stuff. Um, my fitness was good. I think my bike setup was really good when I was on that trek.

Um, I had a really good team. I put, like I said, I put absolutely everything into it. Um, back then it was a little different too. Like guys were, you know, maybe not checking all the boxes quite as much. You had some guys that were known for being strong trainers and some guys that were known for being really fast on the track.

Mm-hmm. And, um, I mean, I was walking the track every single day after practice. Like now everybody does all of that stuff and, and everybody in their brother's got a cell phone on the side of the trap, you know, filming every single line, so you can't hide anything anymore, which is pretty annoying. Um, everybody ends up on the same lines and, and people just know what to look for a bit more now too.

But, um, yeah, I think it was just, it was, it was everything. It was the culmination of, you know, like I said, 15 years of effort and riding experience kind of coming together. Um, fitness, bike setup team. Like, I just had everything pretty locked in. So, um, you know, it was a, it was a hard package to, to beat for sure.

And I feel like honestly, like I should have dominated a lot more than I did. I left a lot of races on the table. I think it was, uh. 2011. I should have won every race that year, like for sure. I think I was winning Fort William by like six seconds or something. Yeah, I remember that. And then Libre Libre I think was the championship round and I think I won qualifying and just rode so nervous in the finals and just completely jacked it up and got third.

But I should have smoked everybody that weekend. Uh, even world champs that year, like this will not be a popular statement, but I think I beat Danny by like seven seconds in qualifying at Schore, something like that in the dry. And when it rained, I think I was on like the same second as he was, um, halfway down the track.

And I remember just really being conservative at the top part of the track. 'cause it's where all the sketchy stuff was. And my strong sections were towards the bottom where the ruts were a bit bigger and it was less that like Rudy stuff. Mm-hmm. So I was like two turns away from the halfway point and my plan in my head was like, turn it on when you basically get across that bridge.

And I crashed the corner ride before it. So I don't know that I would've won that, but it would've been a lot closer than it was for sure. So, um, same thing in 2012, like, I don't know, but. Could have, should have, would've, you could talk to Greg or Danny or any of those guys too. There's a whole bunch of races that got away.

But, um, yeah, we had a good run for sure. And, uh, it would've been nice to get a few more like, I mean, I remember like, I can't remember exactly what year it was, but when Greg, you were getting close to Greg's record and, and I was like, I thought there's no chance. Like you are gonna like blow by. Yeah. Um, but yeah, unfortunately, you know, injuries and cir circumstances caught up to you, but I think like downhill's a pretty, it's pretty ridiculous.

Like I don't think that many sports that have the variables that downhill have, um, you know, for someone to sustain a, a long career at the top is, I mean, in any sport it's tough, but I think maybe like moto could be compared to a degree and maybe B mx. Um, but still like with the variables, like in terms of every track is totally unique.

Um, conditions are always different. You're dealing with roots and rocks and like, whereas I feel like, I mean, I race Moto as well when I was younger, and so like motocross is always, I mean, it's obviously ruts up and stuff, but a motocross track is a motocross track. Like it's, you know, obviously you got different turns and stuff, but, and you, the thing is down or you only have one chance.

Like you have, you get down to your final and like what other sport do you have that pressure where you've got literally one shot to make this happen? Yeah. And anything goes wrong. And that's all she wrote. Yeah, for sure. It is tricky, like, uh, yeah, so many things changing, so many variables, and it's one race, it's a short lap.

And the the times are generally so tight that a little mistake is like, you know, you're out. It'd be like, I don't know if you could compare it. 'cause motocross tracks, like maybe an outdoor track, I don't know. But it'd be like doing a two lap sprint race with all the top guys. Um, and then some races you're just gonna like take the watering truck out and just douse the track right before that hot lap.

Like, I don't know, like, you know, and spend a bunch of time on the, you know, six hours off the track and then just go out and do one lap or so. It's like, yeah, it's a, it's a tricky one to be consistent for sure. So it's so impressive. Like, guys like Greg that have been able to do it and win races for the, the span of years he's been able to do it is, uh, is pretty crazy, man.

But yeah, it's, I don't know, it's a funny thing. It's like lot goes into it for sure. And, uh, yeah, I would've thought that I would've blown by that record too. It's been, uh, uh, I just have to laugh at it. You know, I'm, I'm pretty competitive, so I really don't like how the last five or so years have gone, but.

You just, I look at the circumstances and how the injuries have happened and just like, it's just like, yeah, sometimes you're on, you know, the winning side of things where you feel like you can do no wrong. And you know, I, I remember having really big crashes during those years that I was winning. Not a lot, but occasionally, and you just get up and everything was fine.

And it feels like the last five years, like, I'll, I'll just have a little tip over and just like, blow something out or, you know, like there's just, circumstances are just crazy. Like, like you said, to, to have the consistency. There's so many variables and it's so easy to hit the ground. And, uh, sometimes you hit the ground and it's like you can cart, well, you're way down the track and everything's fine, and sometimes you tip over and you're out for, you know, four months.

It's like a, it's a hard one to be consistent at. Yeah. It felt like you got seriously unlucky, like from pretty much 2018, like onwards, you know? I remember you won Lazo and Yeah. And then afterwards you had that thumb injury and it was kind of like, ever since then, it was like, kind of like up and down you'd have a little injury and like not that serious until obviously 2023 was a big one, but, um, and then you'd like come back and then we'd be something else that happens again.

Um, yeah. And then I really thought like, was it 22? I think? Yeah. 22. You had a really good year. Mm-hmm. Um, and I was kind of thinking like, yeah, 23. Could be the year that you start winning again. Yeah. And then like first race, like I know. Talk, talk to me about that and like, man, that must have been devastating.

Yeah, it's uh, it's hard for sure, but I think, um, I've got a lot of other things going on in life. Um, married now, like got a lot of other good things. So I, I try not to dwell on it too much. Um, part of me is so competitive, you know, even talking about the Danny Run, like complete, no disrespect to Danny. It was the sickest run I've ever seen.

I just watched it on YouTube the other day and I was like, dude, that was insane. And, and maybe you would've smoked me. I don't know. Um, but I, I have that side where I'm just like, dude, I just want to like be the Terminator and win every race forever. That's, that's what you train for, right? Yeah. Um, so it's really hard for me sometimes to be like, accept the circumstances, but it's like you have to, it is, it is what it is.

Like the, the run, like I said, I, I've chosen to just kind of like, eh, that's life. Like, kind of laugh about it. A motocross, honestly, I went through a very similar streak. Um, it wasn't as long, it was only maybe two years, but it was just like every time you had, like, I. One good week almost. It was like the next week there was an injury and it was always weird circumstances, same things like you check up for a big double on your first lap in a race and some dude behind you jumps and lands on your back and you know, whatever.

You break an arm or you, you know, the wind blows, you just off the side of this jump and there's a hay bell right in the perfect spot. Or it was just always something that was like, ah, man. Like, it's just those variables when you're racing and going that fast that are, um, you know, you have those moments.

Sometimes you would know, you go a couple years and you're like, you have a couple close calls and you're like, well that was about an inch away from maybe being a season ender. And you pull it off and you're like, you just get away with those. And then there's years where it's like every one of those close calls, you just happen to be an inch the wrong way.

And it's like injury after injury. So, um, yeah, the 23 1 with my elbow, man, that was a tough one because it was like you said, and I think 18 when I won in Croatia in my last win. I felt really good. Um, I felt like I was really building into that year strong. Um, I felt like I still had quite a ways to go from that win to where I feel like I would've been at my best that year.

Like I thought I would probably peak around Midseason. Um, and we went to Fort William. I think I was leading qualifying and got a flat and ended up, uh, still qualifying eighth or something like that. Finals I think I was leading as well. Like I was green on all the splits and I came into that little manmade rock garden, kind of like in the middle of the track.

And uh, one of those big boulders had just come loose and it was just like rolling in the pocket and same line, same everything as I'd been all, all weakened. Um, I think my teammate, even Angel and a couple other people got smoked on the same rock. You couldn't tell it was loose 'cause it was in the shadows.

And I hit it and just basically just tucked the front and landed straight on my thumb and kind of popped that thing out and then right back in and, um. And that just kind of started like the chain of events that year where my thumb was like really bad. It was really hard to hold onto the bars and I tried to keep racing through it.

Um, I think I went to Valdi Soul the next weekend and just rolled down the hill for like 50th or something and I was like, dude, this isn't really doing much. Or different track. Actually it was somewhere else. I think you, did you not get, I think you went to Liang and got second. Yeah, I think that was it.

Like I think we, we went to Leo gang. That track was really smooth. I think I like taped my hand to the bar pretty much. Did that. Then I took some time off, went back to Val Toole, I think that was the next race like maybe a few weeks later and I had a really small tip over and practiced and landed straight back on my thumb, tried to do the finals and I think that's where I got like 50th and I was just like, dude, I, this is probably over.

So took some time off, um, healed that thing up. Then went to the 29 er on yt. That was when the 29 er first came out. Uh, went to France, my first World Cup back I think. I can't remember qualified. I had some good time practice stuff, but it was like first time back on the bike. New bike crashed in like the third turn of finals.

Then went to Switzerland, uh, second race back and I think I got, uh, that was world's that year. I think I top six or something. I can't remember. But, so that was that year. Then the next year, um. Uh, I went to a race here in the US and I broke a crank on this big flat finish line jump and like rolled my ankle under the bike really bad and exploded it like right before Fort William.

And then jumped the big finish line triple and like my third lap of practice at Fort William, like could barely walk, like just went out and did practice. Landed the jump snap, another crank full of the exact same ankle back under. Um, it was just like, it was one of those things where you're just like, you just laugh.

You're like, dude, like I've been running those cranks for five years. I've won 10 races on the same setup, never had one issue and then broke two in a few weeks. It was like, and then got into finals for Fort William and then had that massive crash like, oh yeah, start wheeled over the berm. So that all happened in a row and then went to Leo Gang the next weekend with the blown out ankle and everything else.

I think I got second there and then, um, can't remember like there was a race or two after that. And then when I was at Pandora in practice, and it was one of those years where it was like really dusty and I was like bombing down the pra down the track towards the bottom and a kid dropped in like right in front of me in practice and just dust everywhere.

And I just got off line by a little bit and ended up like shoulder checking a tree. And uh, I did both of my shoulders at the same time. The AC joints, like one on the tree and one on the ground when I hit the ground. So that was that. And then, uh. I think that was that season. Then the next year at Mountain Creek, same race where I did my ankle first lap of practice, just rolling down the track, chill, first run.

I was behind Nico actually. And uh, we came up over this little blind rise first lap where you just, the, like, you're going pretty fast and your wheels just barely leave the ground, like maybe by this much. And we come up over the rise and this big rock had rolled into the middle of the track and you couldn't see it.

'cause it was on the backside where it was blind. And Nico landed right next to it and I just landed on my front wheel perfectly on it and just had the biggest crash and just destroyed my back. And that was out for a few months. And then I think I had another injury in there somewhere, I don't even remember.

But it was just literally like, dude, I, I just remember like the amount of times I was just laying on the ground, like, dude, like I don't even feel like I made a mistake. Like just wrong place, wrong time. Like then I'm not one to make excuses, like if I suck and I blow it, it's like, yep, that's on you. But it was just these things where you're like, yeah, you're just kind of part of being on the track and uh, a dangerous sport.

So I can't remember what happened, but 2022 we had, um, and I was going through different bikes every year and tires and all kinds of stuff we were trying to figure out. So 22, I feel like was the first year where we were starting to figure out the bike at intense. We had that prototype, I was feeling good.

Um, I just wanted to get through the year healthy. I felt like my fitness, everything just from all the time off and injuries was like gonna take me a year to kind of rebuild. So I started the year, you know, I think around 10th or something and um, I think I podium like the last four, the last five rounds or something like that.

And was feeling like by that last race at Val Toole, I was like, ready to win again. I feel like I probably could have won that race. Um, and the whole season I crashed two times. Once I, I tipped over on my first practice lap, I think at Leo Gang in the Mud. And then I didn't crash that entire World Cup year, not one time, no way.

And they were some of the gnarliest muddiest tracks I've ever ridden. And then ole finals morning, I got a front flat and I was riding down a track with a flat tire and I washed the front and one of those rock burns at the bottom and landed on my thumb and hurt my thumb again. So raced with a hurt thumb a little bit, but I think I got.

Third or fifth or something at that race, but it was like that year where I'm like, all right, I just had a really consistent year. I rode like very within my means. Like I pretty much didn't crash for an entire year straight. Made it through all the rounds, podium, pretty much all the last races we had.

Been developing that new bike at intense on like, this is the bike that I need to start winning again. Like we were, we were, everything was coming together perfect for 23. Um, had a really good off season. Spent a ton of time in Tennessee, riding training, testing, um, came into 23 like, all right, we're gonna battle for the title again.

Like finally like, we're back. And then, yeah, third practice, one run at Switzerland. I had that huge and blew my elbow out and then was off the bike for like almost a year. So it was like, here we are, and we're back. So it's uh, it's ups and downs, man. It's, um, it's a crazy sport that we race and sometimes she goes and sometimes she really don't go.

So, you know, you just make the most of it. And, uh, yeah. What else can you do? You know. What was the, I mean, how did, like where did you find the motivation? Where did the that come from to keep picking yourself back up and like starting again? Because I mean, that's just a ridiculous run of, I mean like it's actually unbelievable.

Yeah. It's uh, I don't know. I mean, I'm going through it right now. I just had another little finger surgery from an issue I've been dealing with for a couple of years and, uh, got it fixed right after Christmas and um, just got back on the bike a couple of weeks ago. So I'm hoping I'll be good enough to race here in a few weeks, um, at our race at Windrock and then build into the middle of the season.

Um, last year was interesting 'cause I felt really good after not riding for so long. New bike knew everything. I just kind of jelled with everything pretty quick. Um, but I think the motivation just comes from like one, I love it. Um, it's just fun. Like, I love riding my bike. I can't think of, if I think about like, what else am I gonna do?

Like, there's a lot of other things that I could do, but nothing, I don't enjoy anything as much as I like riding. And I think when we talked about earlier, that's part of where I've definitely matured, you know, the last five plus years is like enjoying what I have and understanding like. To be able to be this good at something that I, I truly love doing.

You know, when that, when that door closes and I'm, I'm done racing, it's like I, I won't be able to ever do it at that level again, and I'll definitely miss it. So it's like, while I can still do it, I really wanna do it. Um, I've been able to kind of set my program up in a way where it's really enjoyable.

Like it's a little more, uh, I don't know, casual. I got a lot of people around me that, that are just kind of friends. Um, and I've been on so many good teams. I've never been on a team that I, I didn't enjoy, but I feel like now, like just the setup we have is, is a bit low key. You know, it's just pretty chill, which is, it makes it fun.

Um, my wife travels with me to pretty much all the races, so that makes being on the road, you know, a little bit easier for sure. Um, and yeah, so it's, yeah, I mean it, part of it is, it's a job and I, I make a good living at it and to make a good living doing something that I, I really love doing is like. I kind of feel like I wanna do it as long as I can.

As soon as I feel like I can't be competitive and be challenging for podiums and wins, then I, I'll be over it. 'cause I'm, I don't wanna fill the pack, so to speak. Um, but I feel like I've still got winning speed in me. I just gotta, uh, get things to kind of line up a little bit and get a healthy streak and kind of get, get things in order.

So that's the hope this year. I've definitely got a schedule that will be pretty fun. Like it's mostly North American base, probably seven of the 10 World Cups I think we'll do and kind of scheduled it to where, you know, I don't have to be in Europe for the whole summer. Um, I can just kind of go over, do two races, come back for a little bit, race here, go over there, do two races, come back, race here for a bit.

So trying to set my schedule up that it can be, um, you know, sustainable. 'cause we have been racing for a lot of years. So, um, trying to keep the fun in it, trying to give myself the opportunity to compete at the highest level and, um, kind of balance life and everything at the same time. So it's, uh, yeah, just fun, dude.

That's really it. Like, I enjoy it as soon as I get back on my bike after a year, I'm like, dude, this is awesome. So if I stop liking or, you know, stop liking to ride my bike, uh, or I stop being competitive, then I'll probably quit. But as long as those two things are happening, I'm, I'm good. So do you feel like you can win this year again and also.

In general, how much harder do you think it is to win nowadays as opposed to like, you know, 20 11, 20 12? Um, yeah, I think the, the top guys are the top guys. They're always gonna be, you know, really fast. I remember like, even in 11 and 12, like when Greg was on, or Sam Hill or some of these guys, um, you know, it was hard.

I think now the depth is just really gnarly. Like there's, you know, not three guys that can win on a dry day. It's probably a lot more, I mean, you still have those standouts, so would be like, you know, Loic, um, Amery, you know, some of those dudes that are gonna be pretty hard to beat. Like, you still kinda have those, those couple of guys that'll probably win more races.

But you got a lot of guys that could win a race, for sure. Mm-hmm. And the time gaps I feel like are, are really tight. So yeah, I think the depth is definitely, is there. I think everybody is like checking all the boxes now. I, I think a lot more people, like if you were to go back in 2011 or 2012 and find the people that really had a training program together and all that.

Um, you know, now it's like if you're in the top 20, the top 60 probably you're like all in on trying to make this thing happen. So I think the depth is definitely a bit deeper now. Um, I also think that there are more good bikes and teams than there were in 20 11, 20 12. Like back then, I, I think there were like legitimately bad bikes, like where you were like, you know, there's a couple of good bikes and some bad bikes.

Now it's like you've probably got 10 brands that are, you know, all in on making, trying to make World Cup race winning bikes and throwing everything at it. You know, I think that they, the, the equipment has gotten really competitive where there's a lot of good products. So to find an equipment advantage now, I think is harder than it probably has ever been.

Um, yeah, I, I think those are probably the differences that stand out in my head the most. I, I remember. Um, so I, I noticed that with the depth that you mentioned there because 20, 20 17, I was 21st of other soul. I was 13 seconds behind you. And in 2021, I think when they had Worlds or 22, I can't remember.

Um, I looked and I looked at the times and if you were 13 seconds back, you weren't 21st. You were 51st. Yeah. And I was like, that is insane actually. And, and it's only a few years. It's like three, four years. And the, the. The whole sport has changed. I mean, because like it's not, I don't feel like you feel like you're going the same speed or, or, or faster, but then yeah, it's just you've got all these bloody frenchies coming in and freaking frenchies, man.

Yep. It is crazy. Like, you look at the qualifying gap sometimes and it's like, I've won races by bigger gaps than what the qualifying gap is. Like, it's tight, man. Like a lot of guys are going fast. If you're off a couple of seconds, you know, it's not gonna be one or two spots. It might be 15 spots in two seconds.

Yeah. It's crazy outside. It is. Um, but yeah, it sounds, yeah, it sounds bad from the outside as well. 'cause like people ask, you know, if people ask you how you did and then you like, you know, you tell them whatever you, for you if you got like 15th mm-hmm. And they're like, oh. But it's like, you, you could be like two seconds back.

Yeah. It's, it's like nothing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's like one tiny mistake and that's, you know, it's, it's just insane. Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, I mean, it's tight. But yeah, I think to answer your question, um, yeah, I feel like I still can win. I, I, uh, I wouldn't say I surprised myself last year, but I was off the bike pretty much for an entire year.

Like, I wrote a little bit at a few times in there. And then, um. Had had to kind of like, I had some complications with my elbow where I had to like take a few more months off right about the time I was ready to start training and riding again was like, basically just after Poland last year, like my plan was to come home from Poland, get back on the bike and be back within, you know, a month or two.

Um, and somehow, I still don't know what the heck happened, but I ended up like having some really gnarly bone bruising in one of my, my right foot. I think it's from like all the hours and strain that I was like working out of the bike park, like hiking around all the time. Mm-hmm. Um, we were in Poland and I walked the track and I kind of jumped off that like big finish line bridge and uh, I didn't feel any pain in my foot when I landed, but I woke up the next morning and like couldn't walk and was like crutching around the rest of the weekend and got home and got an MRI and my PT guy was like, dude, like this is weird.

'cause usually these injuries only happen in like, uh, marathon runners and stuff like that. Like, what are you doing that's like, well we've been working a lot and uh, but anyway, so that had me off the bike for a few more months. So it was about a, you know, it was like crank works when I got back on the bike just before that, um, it was, it was a year, maybe even a little more.

Um, and I got back, felt good straight away. It was brand new bike, new suspension, like a lot of new stuff. And, um, did national champs maybe three weeks back on the bike and got second. And then, um. Did that World Cup. I really wanted to race worlds in Pandora. Um, I feel like that track for me would've been very interesting, even though I was like outta shape and just barely back on the bike.

Like I really feel like, I don't know if I could have won it, but I think I could have got on the podium. Um, but that didn't work out. That's a whole other story with USA cycling, but didn't get on the team. Um, but yeah, went to Denville and, uh, qualified, which was cool. That was my only goal. Like I knew I was gonna struggle there, like my fitness, like that was another thing last year is I, I've never stopped training really since I started racing mountain bikes.

Like I've always just loved to train. Like I'm the guy that can go through a World Cup season, win the last world cup, go home, and I'm probably back in the gym within two or three days at least. Just moving around a little bit. Mm-hmm. Like, I just like to move and be in the gym and do that stuff. Um, when I hurt my elbow, I thought I would be able to be back on the bike in like three months, which is funny now thinking about it.

But, so after surgery I was in pt, dude, I was hammering on the training for like the first two or three months after surgery. Just like, if I can just get back towards the end of the season, like I don't want to give up the whole season. And it was just like talking with the doctors. They're like, dude, this surgery is no joke.

Like it's gonna take you eight months to a year probably. And, and so when I kind of realized that it wasn't happening, I, I was honestly. Kind of just burnout on training. Like it was, that's the hard thing. Maybe the hardest thing with the injuries, I'm going off on a bit of a side tangent here, but, um, not easy.

When you get hurt early in the season, like you've gone through a, you know, a six month off season usually of really hard training and a ton of work, and you're just like, all right, it's finally time for it to pay off. We're going to the races and you get hurt. And then it's like, you know, if you hurt your thumb or something, it's like, not like you can't still be on the spin bike or you can't be in the gym, like doing leg stuff and working with machines or, um, you know, and I do my foot.

It's like you're still doing upper body. Like you always find a way to strain through your injuries. You don't just take time off. It's like the injuries usually heal faster. Mm-hmm. If you can keep blood moving when you come back, or usually, you know, you haven't lost it all. So for the first time in 15 years, I was like, dude, I'm just kind of like, I've just put in five of the biggest off seasons of my life to basically race one season.

Like, I, I'm just like tired of training. Like for the first time I was like, I just need a break. Like, and I just took, I don't know, six months, pretty much off. I think I was in the gym like three times. I didn't ride my bike. I didn't sit on a spin. I didn't do anything. I mean, we were wide open working like Yeah.

You know, at the park and businesses. I was traveling a lot, so we were really busy, but I was just kind of like, I just needed some time off. So when I came back to rotting last year, I. I, you know, I wasn't coming off the couch because we were traveling so much, but I definitely wasn't coming out of the gym.

It was like, I didn't really do anything. I just, uh, started riding and I, I don't know if it was the best idea, but mentally for me it was a good reset. I felt fresh. So when I raced last year, I, I knew like the fitness wasn't there, I just wanted to get some racing under my belt. Um, and by the last race at Mount St.

Anne, um, you know, U Open was the weekend before my splits were really good. I had splits that were like within a 10th or two of the winning split through I think like half or three quarters of the track. And I knew like my fitness was just suffering at the bottom. Uh, St. Anne, I ended up qualifying seventh and semis and same thing there, like, I was running lead pace through like the halfway three quarter point of the track.

Um, just wasn't quite, didn't have the, uh, the fitness to get me through the finish line as much as I needed. So the speed came back really quick. I was really, uh, happy with that. So I think, um, I'll come into this year better prepared, so by the time we get into the midway point of the season and build through the end of the year.

Yeah, my, my goal a hundred percent is to be able to challenge for wins. So, um, I need a few more months for sure. But, uh, yeah, the hope is to, to get back to that point. And I don't wanna, uh, maybe I shouldn't say this 'cause I'm setting the bar kinda high, but like I'm only planning to do some of the, you know, seven of the World Cups, but I'm like, it'd be pretty cool to miss a few World Cups and show up and win run and then not to the next one.

I don't know if I could pull that off, but it would be cool. Well, maybe that's a good strategy. Focus on the, the, the ones that, that you feel like you wanna do or can do. Yeah. And then, uh, throw all your cards, uh, when you know, at the ones you can, it's, it's pretty cool. There's gonna be 10, 10 races this year.

It's, it's pretty insane. Yeah, for sure. I was, that was the other thing I wanted to ask is what do you think about the whole Yeah, the whole new change, new direction of the sport. Like obviously they've gone down now to 30 guys, new broadcast, all of that. Um, also like with events like hard line and stuff, I feel like that's something that's picking up.

Uh, I mean, is that something you've ever considered? Uh, you know, yeah. What's what's your thoughts on the sport right now? Yeah, it's interesting. Um, it's funny, I was just talking to somebody yesterday about this and they're, they're asking me what I think, and I, I try to be pretty optimistic about it, um, because I understand there's a lot more that goes into it than what I understand.

Um, like I'm a business owner. Owning the bike park has definitely given me a new perspective on. There's a lot like that has to go down that maybe is not ideally what you would like to do. Um, but to, to run a business and for the greater overall good. It's like sometimes you gotta take a few steps back, just take a step forward, or you gotta, you know, focus on some of the things that to me are not so fun because you gotta pay the bills and you're looking down the road, you know, five, 10 years.

Um, so yeah, as far as like the state of the sport, I think it's great. Like the competition's awesome, the teams, the riders. I think there's so much there to work with. Um, I think it's as entertaining as it's ever been. The racing is incredible. We have probably more different winners on average throughout a season than we've had in a lot of other years.

Um, a lot of good stuff. But yeah, as far as the changes, like I get what Warner Brothers and UCI is trying to do, like they're trying to make the show around more of the top guys. They're trying to have less riders so you can televise full runs and put that into a tighter package. Um, which in theory would be more, um, valuable to outside industry brands and sponsors and kind of building that whole thing.

So from a a broad view, I think it makes sense. Um, from a writer's perspective, it's difficult because, um, I just see things through that lens. And as a rider, I really liked the Red Bull schedule. Like I liked the protected riders through the top 20 or whatever it was. Um, I, I liked that there was just a qualifying and a final and the way the point set up and the practice schedule and the way the weekend flowed was good.

Like, you knew if you were a top guy that you were gonna be able to be in the finals with a chance to try to win every weekend. Like you were gonna have to really mess some stuff up to drop outside that top 20 protected status. Um, so it was just like, kind of less that could go wrong. And it felt like it was, you know, you travel so much, you spend so much money, you go to Europe, you do all this stuff, so.

To just kind of know, like, I'll be in there ready to fight for a win when I need to win. You know, it's like mm-hmm. When you, when that changes, like, you know, and the protected riders go way down, and there's a lot more like opportunities for things to kind of go sideways and lose a lot of points. As a rider, that's obviously a bit more stressful.

Um, this year there's no protection. Like you have that last chance qualifier thing, which does make it fair, which is kind of, you know, allowing me to show up at random World Cups and not feel like, dude, I've actually gotta qualify here, and like, whatever. It's like, well, everybody's gotta qualify. Um, so maybe it's kind of good for me in that way, but it's, um, maybe it creates more drama for the sport on one side, which could be exciting and, and make big point swings.

On the other hand, as a, as a fan of racing, I just wanna see the fastest guys all be able to race during the race and not be like, oh, like, I wonder what would've happened if Bruney wouldn't have flattered in his qualifier and was like, here in the finals. Like, it'd be, you know, they would suck not to see the, uh, the top guys race.

So, um, yeah, I don't know, man, like pros and cons on all sides. Like, ultimately, I don't know that I, I really understand the five year game plan from mm-hmm. Warner Brothers. Like, what? Where are we trying to get with this and what's like, you know, I know, like I, I chat with Chris Ball occasionally, um, and I know he is pretty strategic it sounds like, and like where the next five years will go and each year is kind of a step closer to like this longer term plan.

So because I don't understand exactly all the details, it's kind of hard for me to comment on it like too deep because I'm just looking at things kind of surface level and, and obviously I just hope this sport grows. I hope it's good for everybody. So I, I choose to try to be pretty optimistic and hope that everything will work out good.

But, um, there is a lot of other really good races popping up. Like our US National series here in the US is like really kind of taking off. They're good tracks, really fun to race. I really like doing them because you actually get to ride and race alongside like fellow racers, like amateur racers. Yeah. So it's, uh, you know, you might have 300 other racers there that aren't in the pro class on a weekend.

You get to like hang out with those guys in the pits and chat and they get to see you on the track. Like it's, it's a fun atmosphere that I don't get as much when I go to a World Cup. Um, and it's just obviously really fun for me to race here at home. I haven't gotten to do a ton of that through my career because most of our times in Europe, um, so I've always like dreamed of doing a schedule that was like a actually be able to do all the nationals and stuff.

So I'm really excited to do that. Um. But yeah, I mean, overall it's hard for me to say, man, like it's, I don't know. I was just chatting again with somebody yesterday about this, like even the, the paywall that you have to pay to watch the sport. Mm-hmm. It's like, it's probably makes entry into people seeing the sport, you know, a little bit more difficult.

Um, but the sports that I love, like motocross and Supercross, like, you pay to watch those. So it's like, you know, I, I just dunno like where the fund's going, what's the return overall for the sport? Like, I don't understand those things, so it's hard for me to say, like, you know, I can say like, oh, it sucks that it's harder to watch than it was on Red Bull.

Um, but if it's providing the funds to film full runs and, and eventually lead to, you know, a better outcome for the racers, you know, three years down the road or something that it's like, okay, I could see that making sense. Um, but yet, I don't know, I guess we'll have to wait and, and see. My, my thought on it was also with the live event, um, I can also see where they're going with the, with the broadcast and all of that.

But, you know, part of the cool thing about being at a Downer race, uh, or a World Cup is, you know, you're standing there in practice and you're seeing everyone like sending it down, you know, down some gnarly sections and there's a lot of action. And then now I think like you've only got 30 guys, um, you know, on track.

Um, okay. Yeah. There'll be more for qualifying, but still they've limited that a lot. Um, yeah, so I don't know realistically how many people they're actually gonna be at the race this year. Um, like. You're gonna be standing there, you're standing quite a while and not that many people are gonna be coming down the track.

And yeah, I can understand like, it's cool for broadcast, but like, I think for people actually at the event, like, I mean part, I think like the coolest part is seeing guys absolutely send it like run and done, like just going, yeah. You know, like, and there's gonna be way less of, you know, guys doing that, which I think is kind of sad.

Um, yeah, because it's kind of like what downhill, at least for me, like when I grew up, like that's kind of what I perceive downhill as. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, I don't know. So yeah. Yeah, I know. And I feel like even that is like a, it's got like a, a positive and a negative on one side. It's like when you get these massive turnouts for the races in Europe, if you stand on the side of the track, you'll be constantly entertained for sure.

Um, you bring a lot of money to the local, you know, uh, the hotels and the restaurants and all that kind of stuff. Um, but at the same time, like we've raced the O Gang sometimes where I think there's like 250 or 300 dudes or something. Mm-hmm. Like try to qualify and it's like, dude qualifying goes to like five 30 and like, yeah, it's all day.

You're standing in like an hour and a half lift line every lap to get up for practice. And it's just like, what are we doing? Like in reality, you know, a hundred of those guys are gonna be so far off a qualifying pace that it's like, it's good experience I think for them to be there and be able to get that.

Um. And, you know, I, I'd do the same thing if I had the opportunity to go and race it, probably. But it's also like, if you're trying to like narrow the sport towards a certain window and make it the best for the guys that are really pushing the sport along, you know, there's opportunities to develop at other races.

If you're in that, that stage of your career, like, it, it's a, it's pretty taxing on infrastructure and the track and you know, like what a, what a race weekend looks like for, for the top riders and like, you know, those lift lines and stuff. So it's, I don't know, man, like it definitely favors the people at the top, but if you look at a lot of their sports, that's kind of the what builds the sport.

But you need people to eventually get there too. So that's where like, I think, I think now that it seems like there's better national series, at least here in the US before it was like the National series was like pretty dead for a long time. So it was like if you wanted to race a decent race, you just had to go to a World Cup now.

Like we actually have races here where you're gonna have, you know, really fast guys doing all the races. So if you just wanna develop and get ready, this is a great place to do it. You don't need to go to Europe and race all those races. But I. Um, yeah, man, I'm, I'm with you. Like, that's part of what makes our sport so cool is like that grassroots entry into downhill where you see somebody with like, jeans qualify for a World Cup and it's like, dude, that's awesome.

Like, that's the coolest thing ever. But then when you're standing in line behind 300 people for hours waiting to get on the lift and the track's destroyed and you can't go like five straightaways without a red flag and somebody's killed themselves, you're just like, it's a bit of a mission on that side too.

So I, yeah. I don't know. I'm glad I don't have to make those decisions. Yeah, man. Um, it's gonna be interesting the next, uh, next few years. I mean, it's been cool to see all these other events pop up as well. Um, what about something like, uh, like hardline, um, what do you have? Is that something you've ever thought about or ever considered?

Yeah, I think, um, honestly this year was maybe the first year that I thought about it a little bit more. Um, I never really was very attracted to the, the one in Wales, if I'm honest. 'cause every time I watched it, it was just like sideways blowing rain Yeah. Land. And I think it landed at a bit of a weird time of the year.

And for me, like if you're so focused on the World Cups, for me, I don't want to do anything to jeopardize me not being able to race those world Cups. Like, I don't wanna go do a bonus race and get hurt and then miss a World Cup season because World Cups were, were always the focus. So I try to be disciplined enough to just like.

Just do the minimum I could possibly do. Mm-hmm. To feel like I could really be prepared for the World Cups and kind of minimize risk and the grind of travel and all that stuff. Especially as I've gotten older. Um, but as those events get bigger and the numbers get bigger and the prize money's bigger and it becomes like, kind of its own thing separate from the World Cups, I think more riders will be attracted to go do those.

Um, yeah, we'll see. Hard line does look pretty fun. Like the one in Tasmania, like it's usually dry there and it looks like a, you know, it's like, it's preseason so if you get hurt you get to miss a lot of races. Like we've seen Jackson do last year. Mm-hmm. And, and potentially Ronan do this year. Hopefully he'll be back soon.

But, um, they're, they're pretty risky. I think that's the only downside of those. It's kind of what makes 'em cool is they're their own thing and they got, you know, crazy tracks and they're fun to watch. Um, I guess it just depends on what your, your focus is for the year. Um, for me, if I'm going for a World Cup overall title, it's gonna be pretty hard for me to go do those bonus races.

'cause I think there's just a lot of risk involved. But if I transition more into, like, racing a few World Cups and focusing on the US National Series and maybe some, uh, hard line events or something like that, I could see that becoming a, you know, an option in the future. I don't know. It's, it's interesting with hardline because.

Okay. First of all, the Wales one just looks horrible. Yeah, that does not look fun. Like I, my trade job on the track, dude, everything looks awesome until they built that scaffolding jump and I'm like, I'm out. I'm getting too old for that. How you can have that dude. Yeah. I actually asked Bernard about that as well.

I was like, dude, that, it's just ridiculous that they, but he, he told me it actually wasn't as bad as it seemed on the internet, but like it looked pretty horrendous. Yeah, you would say that. 'cause he's gnarly like that, but like, yeah, he's, I mean, he does testing for hotline, so I guess he's not a, yeah, maybe not the right person to ask, but the, the one in Tasmania like looks somewhat fun.

Um, and obviously it's dry conditions are good. Um, yeah. But it's, it's interesting because like all the, you know, all these events are popping up, like also not even racing, like if you've got like Fest series, dark Fest, those type of events as well with like huge jumps and everyone like freaks out, um, because of these massive jumps.

But most of the time, I mean, even in hardline now, you saw like last year Jackson got injured and Ronan got injured this year, but, well, I dunno exactly how much, but both of them crashed and not on a jump. Yeah. Um, because most of the time the big crashes happen in more technical sections where you like smash to a tree or something.

Yeah. And I think honestly, events like Dark Fest or something like that is. Probably safer if you know how to jump. Like it's probably safer than riding or racing downhill. Um, because like you don't have rocks and trees and stumps to smash into. Yeah. Yep. Potentially. Yeah. If the jumps are built right too, it's like, uh, you know, they can be really big but still be fairly safe.

Uh, assuming you can make the downside, um, you know, even if you go over the bars or something, um, yeah. When you hit things that don't move, that's when the problems usually happen, but, uh, yeah. Yeah, we'll see. Like I, it's an interesting one, like I think, um, social media has become so important now too. Um, where just because you can top 10 a World Cup doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna move the needle for the brands that you ride for.

Mm. There's some riders that can get a seventh and, you know, um, nothing against those riders, but for whatever reason, I don't think people are gonna like, be going and trying to buy the tires that they're riding or, you know, like mm-hmm. When you look at like, really where does the funding come from and where's the value?

Um, you know, you could, obviously the guy that's winning all the races or has a certain personality is gonna be valuable for brands kind of no matter what. Um, but, you know, where's the value if you're doing these other races that have good media reach or you're, you're folks a bit more on media and like there, there's just more I.

We were literally, again, yesterday I was chatting with somebody and um, you know, it used to be like pretty strict, like what wins on Sunday sales on Mondays type of thing. Mm-hmm. That was always the saying. And it was like whoever's winning's in the magazines and, you know, doing the video parts on, you know, clay Porter's video series and stuff like that.

Whereas nowadays it's, you know, there's definitely that. But then there's this whole other world of like, if you're going to Red Bull, you know, hard line Tasmanian, you're racing in front of those fans and hanging out in the pits and they're watching you ride and you have a good result and you're on Red Bull tv and the whole thing, like, there's a ton of value there.

Like I see it when I do the US National Series here at home. Like I'm in the pits, like I said, with potentially like three or 400 other people that are racers. Those are the guys actually buying the products and they're watching me ride on the track. I'm coming to their mountains, I'm racing their series.

We're talking in the parking lot about my TRP breaks or whatever it is, and I'm like, oh, here, jump on my bike, pedal it around. You can feel it like, oh, you have a question, here's my mechanic. He'll tell you how to dial it in. Like there's, there's a lot of value in those things as well. And like with the media that some of those new series are getting as well.

If you're active in racing, a lot of 'em, like there's, there's definitely a lot of value there. So it's, um, you know, I think there's, as we've seen, I think slowly, even with the crank work series over the last few years, there's more than one way to maybe make a living at the sport now. Um, and I think as media becomes bigger and more of these races pop up, I think that that will kind of continue to go that direction.

So, um, it'll be interesting, you know, I, I don't know, like I think the World Cups will always be the World Cups, but if there's an option where, you know, north American teams can race a really big series in the us, um, and have really good value for their brand partners and spend like a substantially less amount of money, um, I don't know, like I would look at that.

Mm-hmm. It's like, you know, the travel and like, what you could do is, is, is a whole lot easier if you live, you know, over here or if you're traveling from say, New Zealand or Australia and you gotta travel far anyways. Is it gonna be easier to get around Europe and race those, or easier to get around the US and Canada potentially.

Mm-hmm. It's like, I don't know, but, um, I don't know. I think at the end of the day it's more racing and more options and, um, I think that's a good thing. It used to be like, I felt like downhill was like seven races and then it just went into hiding for like eight months, never heard anything. So now it's a little more year round.

Talk to me about, uh, about prize money. Um, because like, I think that. It's honestly embarrassing. Um, like what guys win for, like, Andy Colp told me last year, was it last year, the year before, I don't know. He won league game and he got like 3,700 euros. And I was like, that is insane. Like, yeah. I mean, what, so what are your, I mean, obviously you, and this would be something that would've affected your career a lot.

Um, what's your view on it and also what would you think, where do you think we should be? Like what's, what should be the goal? You know, I don't, I don't know, man. Again, and these answers might get annoying to people, but, um, I don't understand like the, the back end of things that go into that. So I, I don't really know like the factors as much.

It seems like to win a World Cup, like you should probably make at least 10 grand. Like, that'd be cool. Um, be nice to make a lot more than that. Um, I always know, like through my career, yeah, I think that that number like around 4K for a win has always been pretty standard. I don't think it's ever, you know, since I was winning, at least that's I think around what I was getting paid and it was sometimes more, sometimes less.

I think depending on the venue. Um, it, it's, uh, you know, you, you definitely make a lot more money from your bonuses from your sponsors than you do from prize money. Prize money is like, oh, that's cool. Like, probably wouldn't have covered my trip here if that was the only thing I was making. But it's like, it's better than nothing.

Um, so I don't know. I just, I also don't know what goes into it, like. I don't know that I can compare, like Windrock, like our bike park. Like we have the Red Bull, Tennessee National this year, red Bull stepped in the title sponsor it. Um, we're gonna double like basically what we're required to pay prize money wise from the UCI and USA cycling as a C one category event, I think is like 600 bucks for a win or something like that.

Mm-hmm. And, um, I think we're gonna try to double that or a little bit better. I, I can't remember, we're trying to pay like 1500 bucks or something. Um, so for us, like when I look at it, I'm like, dude, I would love to pay like 10 grand to the winner of our race. But when you look at the event as a whole, you have to have so many entries to just cover your base expenses to run an event.

Like it's so expensive to do. And when we look at like, okay, if you start at, you know, five grand for the winner of the men's and the women's class, and then you stagger down from there and two classes, I think we're required to pay out like eight or nine deep. I think the World Cups are 10. Um, and I have no idea.

World Cups are their own thing. So I, I don't know what the numbers are there, but for us, when you look at that and you add that all up, you're like, dude, that's like, I. It's so much money off the bottom line of your event. Mm-hmm. And if your event ends up losing money at the end of the weekend, then you probably are not gonna be able to do that event very long.

So, um, sponsorships are really the thing that make a mountain bike event profitable. At least in my very limited experience. If you're relying on registration numbers, it's not gonna happen. Like you'd be lucky to break even on registration numbers. Yeah. Um, and sponsorships are great if you bring in, you know, if you're a huge series and you're bringing in three or 400 grand in sponsorships, like yeah, you probably crush it.

But if you're bringing in 50 grand sponsorships and you're struggling to break even and it takes you three months to plan and run an event, you're like, is this really worth it? Like, I dunno. And there's so many variables, so it's like it's, uh, I have no idea. So that's why I'm just speaking from my own experience, like I'm a rider.

I would love to just blow the doors off of any other event prize money wise, but I also know we would go out business straight away. So I'm like, well, okay, how do we provide value in other ways? And hopefully. We have more support this year than we did last year for sure. So I'm like, all right, we're doubling the prize money.

Even if it's 1500 bucks, it's better than 600 bucks, which is what it was always in the past. If we get more support next year, you can better believe we're gonna be like, I'm gonna keep pumping it up. Um, but for the World Cups, I'm like, dude, I don't, I don't know honestly like how much money they make and how much they bring in.

Mm-hmm. How much it costs the prize money. It would make sense to me that at the very least, like your championship bonus should be probably pretty big to win one of those things. Um, but I just have no idea what those numbers are and I don't know that we'll ever know. So it's, uh, that's what's kind of hard maybe is like, there's not really any transparency in anything.

So it's like we can speculate, but would you rather have more prize money or would you rather the World Cup's like not exist anymore? And that might not be the scenario at all. Like maybe it's the difference in the top dude, you know, taking a paycheck of a million bucks versus, you know, 700,000. I'm like, I literally have no idea.

So, but yes, to answer your question simply, it, it seems like you should get paid more than four grand to win a World Cup and to win a US National Championship here in the US it would be really cool to get paid more than 400 bucks, which is what I got paid a lot of years. But I don't know what goes into making that decision.

That's crazy. I think the transparency is a big thing. Um, and like. I think that it's so weird, like in our sport, like no one, I mean, I remember you came out a few years back and said, you know how much you'd earned that year, but in general, like people don't really talk about what people get. And so it makes it really hard for, for everyone.

Um, especially the riders, like when they're trying to sign deals and stuff, like they have no idea like how much to even ask because it's like, yeah, no one, no one knows, you know? And, um, sure. I remember when people come in from outside the sport, like my, my wife now, when, when, when she, when I first introduced her to the sport and, and she, I said, yeah, I'm a mountain biker.

And then, you know, she's like, oh, I still do mountain biking. And then I kind of brought her to the Donald Track and she was like, okay, this is, this is pretty wild. And, and then she's like, oh, you guys must, you know, the guys must win huge money. When they, when I was like, Nope. Yeah. And then, and I told her like, yeah, the winner gets, like the winner woke up is like three and a half grand.

And she was like, why do you guy, it doesn't make sense to me. Yeah. Why do you do this? Yeah. Why risk your life for, for it's like risking your life. Yeah. Um, and yeah, I don't know, like downhill often gets compared to motocross and, um, I think a lot of the downer riders, obviously you had a background in motocross, as did I.

Um, and I'm still a huge fan of the sport. Um, and, uh, I feel like it's, it's a bit of an interesting comparison because like a lot of the download guys, I feel like idolize the motocross riders. I don't know if it's the same in reverse, I doubt it. Um, but in motocross, obviously there's way more money. Um, and it's very, it's also known, you know, people know if they win a main event, they get a hundred grand, like, um, which makes things a lot easier for everyone and also justifies people like risking their lives.

Mm-hmm. I dunno if you heard that, um, there was a podcast, um, with Ken Roxon the other day and he was saying that, that he's, he's thinking about like coming over to downhill. I dunno how serious he was. Yeah. What do you think about someone, something like that happening and like Ken coming over and trying, you know, uh, yeah.

I was like the first one to comment on it. I was like, I got a bike with your name on it. Just tell me when and where. And I was like, canyon, get outta the way. We're I, he's mine, let's do it. Um, I think he would honestly, and I could be surprised. I think he would have a really difficult time. I don't think he would get even close to qualifying.

Um, uh, but I don't know, like somebody that will find a way to be successful, like he has through everything he's been through and that has the talent that he has. I just think it would take years to find that on a bicycle for me. I jumped in the mountain biking. Really quick, but that is like really not a good gauge because I was like, arguably better on a bike A BMX bike than I was on a bike when I started racing mountain bikes.

So I had like the blend of the two skills like that were, and I, I don't mean like pretty good on A BMX bike. I mean, like if I was to like focus on BMX racing for a bit, I think I could win BMX races. Like I, I still have like a really pretty good level of skill. Um, 'cause I've known a lot of good guys like Dean Wilson, uh, my buddy Mark that I grew up with a race, like a lot of guys that really high level mound bike or motocross riders mm-hmm.

That are like pretty squirrely on a bike. Even if they're good. Like you're a good mountain bike, you're like, if you watch dean on a mountain bike, he's better than most dudes. But if you put him on a downhill bike and send him down a World Cup track, like, it's like, is that gonna happen? So it's a different level.

You know, it's like saying like, I'm pretty good at racing motocross, but for me to blitz a Supercross set of whoops for 20 laps is like, hey, like I don't know that you just learned that in a year. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. If you drag it. So I think it would be, I. Like the coolest thing ever. If he gave it a shot, um, I think it'd be cool like just come race one of the big US nationals or something, you know what I mean?

Like, just come have some fun, see where you're at, you know? Um, dude, I would be the number one fan for him to try to do that. I also think it would be, um, probably very unlikely that he would, you know, I think with his age, want to even put in the effort and the work for a few years to try to get to the point to do something like that.

Um, with the risk and everything involved. But I could be wrong and like, dude, I'll, I would give him whatever he wanted if he wanted to try. I'm a huge fan of 'em, so I think it would be hard, but it would be really freaking cool if you wanted to give it a shot. What, what do you think would be, what, what do you think would be harder going from Moto to downhill or downhill to mo?

It depends on your experience. Like, that's the thing, like if you took a motocross guy that's just never ridden anything, but like a road bike and tried to put him on downhill bike, that's gonna be really hard. But if you find somebody like Ken that is pretty good on a mountain bike already, he's obviously gonna start way further ahead.

Yeah. And if you take somebody from mountain biking like. Dakota or myself or somebody that's like ridden a lot of dirt bikes and you're like, Hey, let's see if we can get you in an outdoor national, like with a year of training. You're like, yeah, maybe, but I can name off a bunch of mountain bike guys downhill.

Guys are really good right now that are just garbage on a dirt bike. And it's like, never. So, uh, it depends on the person. I, I don't know man. Like, um, I remember Bernard k did it well. He, he kind of, I don't know. I mean he put quite a bit into it a few years back doing the Yeah, the Supercross thing. Yeah.

Yeah. I think it depends on, like, if you have somebody that's never ridden mountain bikes from motocross and somebody that's never ridden dirt bikes from downhill, uh, I don't know, like, it seems like dirt bikes would maybe be harder because you got a clutch and you got, like, there's other things kind of happening.

Um, whereas like, you know, probably anybody that can ride a dirt bike at a high level can at least get on a two wheeled bicycle and like, know what they're kind of doing a little bit. It's not like you're gonna stall the thing trying to like get it out of park. Um, so I don't know. I maybe harder going to motocross.

I'm not sure. I, I mean, I don't know if you've ever had this question. I guess you have your career like, 'cause obviously having the background in motocross and then BMX and downhill, like a lot of people assume that it's. Kind of easy 'cause you're like, oh, you raced motocross, so you went to downhill. So it's like, oh, it must have been easy for you.

But like, I felt like it was maybe a KI, you had the speed and you had big jumps. But I personally feel like it's easier to, if you took two or take a person that's never ridden a mountain bike and never ridden a motocross bike, um, and to teach them to ride around a motocross track slowly is easier than to put them on a downhill track and get them to go down because it's, so, there's some sections where it's steep and like, you know, it's not, you can't just slow down when you want.

Where's a motocross track? Yeah, yeah. You can always stop when you want to stop, you know? Yeah. Uh, and, and obviously you've got variables like roots and rocks and stuff. I, I, at least that's what I struggle with, like mm-hmm. It's like coming from Moto is like, the speed and jumps was like no issue, but as soon as it started going down, it was like, how the hell do you control this thing?

Yeah. Yeah. I was the same way when I started. I remember, uh, the first. I think the first day I ever rode a downhill bike was in, uh, near Las Vegas in uh, Boole Canyon for, uh, it was during Interbike when they used to have the outer bike show and it was out there in Boulder City. And I went out there with my buddy Cody Warren and, uh, you could rent, you know, just stop by the booth of any brand and like take their bike for a test ride or whatever.

So I went to uh, I think the first person, the first place I could get a bike where there wasn't like a wait list or whatever, or like a line was a giant and I rode like a giant glory and uh, the thing had already been clapped out from people crashing out there. 'cause that place is just so gnarly. And, uh, it went up the mountain with Cody and it's probably the, the scariest place you could ever ride a downhill bike.

And that was the first place I decided to try to ride. It's like razor rock everywhere and like big cliffs, it's like, almost like Rampage sort of like, it's super sketchy. And uh, we went down this trail and there's a section of the trail called Poop Shoot. And the people that know this place will laugh when they hear me say this.

'cause they'll be like, oh yeah, I know. And we like you kind of roll up this hill. And it crests, and then it goes like straight down and it's literally all like jagged rock. And it's like this little shoot that you like, you, you kind of run this nar and it's like, to me it might, it might as well have been like beyond vertical.

I remember like getting to the top of that with Cody and just laughing and being like, dude, there's no way I'm ever riding down something like that. Like that's like, you're gonna die. Like, there's just like, no way. It was so steep and so gnarly. And, uh, I was a really good BMX rider, a really good mountain bike or, uh, motocross racer.

And like, at that time I'm like, I'm no like, for sure not happening. And he rode down and I remember just thinking like, dude, that's the scariest thing I've ever seen in my life. And, uh, you know, fast forward a couple years and I was there racing and I've raced that trail a ton of times now, and I, you know, you don't think about like as you adapt, the steepness is like, doesn't really almost factor into anything anymore.

Like you just slow down a little bit. Yeah. You know how to break. It's like not really a big deal. Um, you can go down something crazy steep if you have good brake control and balance and stuff. It's like not, uh, it's pretty chill. Um, but at the time I was like terrifying. So yeah, I mean, yeah, that, that would be the thing with Kenny.

Like if Kenny was like, and I don't know, maybe he'd be motivated, but, uh, I would just scared to see this. Yeah. If he was like 22 and you put him on a downhill bike for two years and he went through the process, I went through. He probably, he'd probably be pretty good. I don't know if he'd win World Cups, but I bet you he would've been pretty fast.

But if you take him at his age now and where he is at and how much ground he'd have to make and the time that he would have to do it, um, yeah, I don't know, but I'd love to see him try. I think we all were done. Yeah, I know what I mean. You've, you're one of the few people you've got a background in BMX, Moto and downhill, and you did them all like real, pretty seriously.

Mm-hmm. Um, obviously downhill the mo the most seriously, but yeah. Um, what, I mean, which one do you think is harder? Um, like, because I think they're, I mean, they're all different and, uh, everyone's like, oh no, we are the gnarliest, you're the gnarliest, whatever. But mm-hmm. You've kind of done them all. I mean, I think they're all hard for different reasons.

Like, uh, BMX is obviously really gnarly. I, I think what makes BMX so hard is like you, you have to have a first straight if you're gonna win consistently. Like you can't be the guy coming from eighth place. That was kind of my problem. When I raced BMX, my track speed was like incredible, but I had a garbage gate and, uh, so like if I won a national, I was doing it from like sixth place, so that, that wasn't gonna happen very often.

So I'd usually work my way up to like third and that's where I'd finish. Um. The amount of time and work and discipline to get out of the gate to the first turn better than all the rest of those guys is like, I could imagine would be so hard to do. Um, there's maybe even genetics that come into play that would be pretty tough to like overcome if you're certain build, um, that race is, I mean, you think a downhill race is short, like A BMX race is like, it, it's so short.

Like you sit around all day to race for like 20 seconds or whatever. Like, so, so that's tough in its own way. Um, then you got motocross, like I think motocross, if you look at where, how serious that sport is and how many people are trying to do it at that level, for sure. Way more than BMX or downhill.

Mm-hmm. Like thousands of kids probably trying to like be a pro motocross supercross racer and they're starting at four years old on the PW 50 and you know, their parents got the motor home and they're going to all the races and they're like, you know, trying to groom these kids to be the next, uh, Eli Tomac or whatever.

So in that stent. I think Jackson and maybe guys like Asa are like the first of this kind of newer wave that have actually started aiming at downhill from a younger age and like taking it serious. Um, it's funny now 'cause we own Windrock and we have kids that are out there. They're 13 or 14. Their parents have bought houses within 10 minutes of the park so that their kids can ride and train there all the time in the hopes of trying to race world Cups.

So I don't think that was happening five or 10 years ago that it's starting to happen in our sport now, um, where people are looking at it a legit, you know, sport that you can make a living at, which I think is awesome. But yeah, the, the depth of, of people trying and motocross is probably way higher than the other two sports, I think that makes it hard.

Um, injuries are super prevalent. Motocross, which I think have derailed so many careers, you probably couldn't even count 'em. I think similar and, and downhill maybe a little bit, but probably more so in motocross. Um, the financial entry into motocross I think is a little bit harder, so maybe that makes it harder, whereas BMX or, or downhill could maybe be a little easier.

Mm-hmm. Um, depending on where you live, how many tracks you have, like those all come into play. Like, I don't know. I, I would think motocross is probably the hardest one. Um, probably just because of the amount of people trying to do it. You know what I mean? It's like trying to be a professional baseball player versus a mm-hmm.

Professional, like. Uh, I don't know, like, I'm trying to think of a sport that would be way smaller, like curling or something. I, I don't know. But it's like you're just, you have so many people trying to do that from a young age, so you're gonna have to be pretty committed probably for a long time to, to kind of overcome that.

But yeah, I don't know. It's cool to see downhill going that way though. Like I know of, uh, three families that have bought houses near the park just in the last six months because they are trying to get their kids the opportunity to ride really good trails and train for world cups and like do it for a living.

And most of them aren't even old enough to race juniors yet at a World Cup. So it's like starting to happen, which is cool. And I mean, you mentioned Jackson Asa there, who in your opinion is, is gonna be the guy, uh, you know, obviously after, obviously now you've got like lo and ery and this sort of bunch, but in a couple years it's gonna be the next gen and mm-hmm.

Who do you think is gonna be the guy that's, you know, or is there gonna be more than one? Um, yeah, I mean, you never know, right? Who's gonna like rise to the occasion? I think Jackson's an easy one. Like he came in his very first year as an elite and, and started winning. It would've been interesting to see what he did last year without the knee injury.

Um, his times as a junior we're really close to the elites already. I think. Um, I. There was a couple riders earlier on, junior guys that were good, but Finn Isles was the first one that kind of sticks out in my mind during my career. That was a junior that was like, yeah, this kid are gonna go from Junior to elite and like kind of just be a podium contender straight away.

Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, I think Jackson for sure is gonna be like one of the next dudes. I think Asa for sure is gonna be one of the next dudes. Like he already has that speed. Um, if, if they can stay away from the injuries and like the mental burnout and some of the other things that like, you know, as a young kid, once you've been doing it for 2, 3, 4 years, depending on how things go, like there is a point where maybe it, it becomes more of a job at times than just like, I just love riding my bike and I'm just so stoked to go to every race and ride all the time.

And like there there is a point where you're like, you know, it can become a little bit more of a job at times. Um, if they maintain the passion and the drive and all that stuff, you know, year after year, we'll see. But I feel like those two guys definitely stick out in my head. Um, the all ran brothers, uh, on common cell are both pretty mm-hmm.

Strong. I think Max is maybe the slightly faster of the two right now, or lifes last year I think. Um. It cracks me up because he literally just looks like, uh, Anne Marie peon like 2.0, like, he's like is flow. And uh, so I think on that program, what they're doing, like I think Max will be really good. Um, guys like Ronan, like Ronan's still mm-hmm.

Really young. Uh, he won a World Cup last year. He seems to be finding a bit more consistency and kind of chilling out when he needs to. Um, so I think he would be good on probably spacing on five other names that I could pull out right now. But, um, I think the max or the, uh, the AA and Jackson, uh, rivalry might be something that could be epic for a long time that I, I think will be pretty cool.

Um, so yeah, I mean I think there are a couple, couple next kids. Um, I know there's some young kids coming up right now I think outta like New Zealand. Um, we have a few here in the states that are pretty good. Um, even guys like Locke, I honestly didn't realize Locke was as young as he was. I thought he was like 24 or 25.

Um, I think he's on a really good trajectory. So yeah. Uh, it'd be interesting, but I think that's probably that, that next wave. And obviously not in the young generation, but, uh, you obviously good friends with with Dak. Yeah. And, and he's been super close to getting that win. And I got a story about Dak 'cause in 20, uh, 2016, um, I remember we were sitting in Liang and we, it was just after qualifying, um, myself and I think, you know, Poie as well.

Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. Uh, we were all sitting there at the, in this little, that little cafe at the Bon Gang. And none of us qualified, actually. No, I lied. Poie Poie did qualify that race, and Dakota was so bummed. Like, he was like head in his hands, like, so, and he's just like, man, like I, I, you know, in America, like, I smoke everyone, like, come here.

And I just get absolutely smashed. Like, I suck. Like, but like, I'll give him props. Like, he, he was like, he's like, I don't care what it takes, like I'm gonna figure this shit out. Like, I'm gonna smoke guys. And like, and then he, he mentioned you at the time, 'cause obviously you were like at the top of your game and, and he was like.

You know, and I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be win one day. Like, and uh, you know, I don't exactly how he put it, but that was the words. And, um, yeah. I couldn't believe it. Like, at the time we laughed, we were like, yeah, whatever. Like, you just didn't qualify. And then like few years later he is actually like, he, he did it like, well, I mean, sure.

He's been close. Yeah. Um, it's, it's insane. I've never met anyone with so much self-belief and confidence. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. And maybe at the same time, lack of confidence at times. That's the thing with me that's like, yeah, he's so like on one hand, confident and on one hand questions himself all the time.

Uhhuh, which I think he does a lot less of now the last couple years, which is awesome. 'cause he is like incredible, um, that he, you know, he kind of just has accepted, he's a top guy now and like, uh, but he has that drive to be better. It's funny when you said, who do you think the next wave is? I was like, just trying to pick young riders, but Dakota was like literally popped into my mind straight away.

I'm like, well, he is not young, but if he stays healthy and has some good years, I think he could be a top dude for another, you know, six, seven years probably if he wanted to pretty easily. And I feel like he's still doing this, you know. Mm-hmm. Every year. Um, so for sure, I mean, I, I think he could have won, you know, arguably three or four races last year if he, if he wouldn't have blown it a few times.

But no, he knows I give him a hard time. But, uh. I'd be like, that wind's coming and if he gets one, like, watch out. Um, but yeah, for sure. I mean it's, uh, Dakota's a crazy one man. Like he, he, he's interesting. He followed a very similar path to me. I knew that he came out of a bit of motocross, but I didn't realize he was a as good of a BMX racer as he was as well.

Mm-hmm. So he's another one of those dudes that's like, he shreds A BMX bike just as much or more than Yeah. Dirt bike. Like he's really good at both. Mm-hmm. Um, came into downhill, probably a similar age to me, took a few more years. I think he didn't have like great support early on, like, and I think he was just, um, um, as I had to mature, he did the same thing.

I think he was like a little all over the place the first few years, um, to kind of settle in, get his program, find some consistency, get some good support. Like it took him a little longer to like find that rhythm. Um, but I mean, dude, he's a crazy, like he was one of those dudes battling to qualify as a complete privateer at World Cups for like a while and you know, now as a, on one of the biggest teams in the whole thing and like superstar of downhill type of thing.

Um, so his story is super unique. I don't know that anybody's. Done it kind of the way he's done it, you know, and taken the time and then started to peak at however old he is now, like later in his twenties, I think. Like, it's, it's pretty crazy. Um, I think he's, I think he's, he might be in his thirties now.

He's in his thirties because I think he's 91, if I'm not mistaken. I think he's, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you're right. So I mean, yeah, to be like just coming into your prime at whatever he is, probably three, two ish or something. Like, dude, he could be winning World Cups when he is 40. Um, that's another thing I think is crazy, like in motocross, like everybody used to retire like 26, 27.

Like you come in at 16 years old and guys like Carmichael and Stewart and these dudes were turning pro at 16, they win races within a year or two. They retire 26, 27 done. Now it's like you have this wave of guys like to Mack and uh, if you look at the top 10 and a four 50 Supercross field Mm. Besides like Hunter and Jet and Chase, they're like all around 30.

Like Tomac I think looked better in Supercross this year before he got hurt than I've ever seen 'em. Um, you look at other sports like football with Tom Brady and like, I think we understand more about health and fitness and taking care of your body and like, so I think as much as these young guys are getting better at younger ages and downhill, I also think you can race a lot deeper into your thirties.

Um, I just turned 37 and I feel like I. If I could stay healthy for like a little bit of time and have a good base on me, like I'm as good as I've ever been. I just, uh, haven't had the chance to kind of show it, but so racing and trying to win races, I mean, I think Greg is like, what is Greg like 42 now or something?

Yeah, Greg was 81. He won Worlds, um, in 21 when he was 39. Yeah. Or he turned 39, I think he turned 39 that year, or he turned 40 that year. Was it 21? Yeah. No, he turned 40 that year. Yeah, so he was 39 when he actually won Worlds. So like, so he is like 43 or 44, like he just won a World Cup, like, uh, I don't know.

He almost won one this year or last year. So, yeah, I mean, yeah, pretty crazy. I think the window is now like 20 to 40, like there's like a 20 year span if you can avoid the big injuries and uh, you know, take decent care of yourself. So I, I think that's really cool. Who, so like, yeah, we, we talked about all these, the, the, you know, the young guns and, and, and Dak.

Yeah. Um, but uh, through your career, like there've been some wild guys out there. Who in your opinion has been like, who are some of the riders that you feel are like the Nast, like where you would like want to see what they were doing on track? 'cause they were doing something ridiculous. Yeah. Um, the very first name that instantly pops into my head that's not even close, I feel like to me, um, is Sam Hill.

He doesn't race it really that much anymore, but, um, I, I could never believe like I, the lines that that dude could hold and like with his foot out and like, going straight across like the worst angle of roots and like holding something that I'm just like, I, I don't know, like I'm pretty confident in my riding skills and I, I see a lot of people do gnarly stuff and to me I'm like, yeah, that's, that's pretty gnarly.

But like, it's just the amount of risk to decide to do it. Mm-hmm. Whereas Sam was like, I don't know that I could, like, at least back when I was watching him do that stuff, I'm like, I don't, I don't know. Like, I can't do that. Like, I just can't do that line. Like, it was just like, I'm gonna need to drop to the bottom and hit the catch ru.

Like, that's just how that to work. Um, I remember Sam just doing some things that you were just like, what the heck? Um, but yeah, he, he's definitely that way. Um, Jackson's got a little bit of that, like when he won, uh, V Soul when he won it, whatever that was a year or two years ago. Um, he did a couple gaps and he moves around on the track in a way that you're like, oh wow, that's like pretty creative.

Like, I didn't actually see that, you know? Um, he is got a bit of that I think. Um, I. Ace's got like kind of bit of that next level stuff. He, he is got good speed and intensity and all that stuff. But yeah, I don't know. Like I, I think, um, Dakota also can pull off some like insane, like creative lines, stuff like that.

Um, you know, and then you got these guys like Bruny where there's like a, there's like a total package there. Like when you talk about like having everything really dialed in to where you're like, you can beat him, but he's got like, he doesn't have any big weaknesses. That's why I was so impressed this year watching him at like Fort William and some of the more muddy races.

Like he really improved at, you know, some of the things that I think were, if he had some weaknesses, those were maybe it, um, I feel like he's still getting better every year. I think he was the best he's ever been this year at times. Um, so yeah. But as far as like doing stuff that like blows my mind, I feel like for me, like Sam was that guy.

Like, I mean, at that time, maybe I just sucked more early in my career, but I just remember watching him do stuff, but it was just like, yep, probably not happening for me. Well, I think that's how you, well, that's how I felt quite a lot of the time. Um, and a lot of the guys feel watching, watching certain riders, and you're just like, that is just ridiculous.

Like, yeah. Yeah. You, you know, we always like walk a track. Like if it's a, if it's not a World Cup, you'd walk a track, like even if it's a local race or whatever, you'd see something and you'd go. That's a World Cup that jumped that, like that gap from there to there. And then, you know, the locals will be like, nah, like, no way.

That's impossible. I'm like, yeah, you think it's impossible, but then you get to a World Cup and some dude will just be like, Yolo For sure. Yo, it is crazy. Like when you, uh, that's what I, I honestly, that's my favorite part about riding a downhill bike is when you can get to a certain speed and skill level, the track starts to look different and the options and the way you can line things up, change outside of the main line, and you can get to do some like really creative stuff and like when you link things together, right?

The momentum you can build to jump a big gap or do some crazy line like that to me is like the funnest thing. When you find a section like that where you're like, oh dude, like watch this. Like, and you're standing on the side of the track and you're like, what the heck was that? It's like, that's like, I've had a few lines and a few sections like that in my career where like, you come into a section of track and the spectators are, and you can just hear it kind of go quiet as you go through and people just are like, oh, and you're like, I'm about to blow some minds right now.

Watch this. Like, because it's just like, yeah, if you're standing on the side of the track looking at a trail and somebody goes ripping by at that speed and does like, it's hard to comprehend, like when you're on the bike doing it, the bikes are so capable. And I feel like we're so skilled from doing it for so many years, it doesn't feel as crazy as what it looks like.

Even for me, if I stop on the side of the track during World Cup practice and watch an gnarly section, like, dude, it scares me. I'm like, dude, is that really what that needs to look like to make that happen? Like that's, and then you go do it and you're like, oh, that was fine. Like, but if you wanna psych yourself out, just stand on side of the track and watch b practice in a gnarly section.

And you're like, there's no way I'm taking that amount of risk. Like I'm just not gonna do that. But, uh, yeah, it's, uh, it is pretty cool, like how you can line stuff up. You do like everyone body. Have you ever, like, when you're in a race runs and, and even in, in the years where you were like dominating, were, was your race run, like, had you had done a run like that in practice?

Um, and then like, were there ever times in your race run where you did things where you, like you did a gap or did something that you hadn't done in practice that you just like full send mode? Um, no. For me, I'm definitely like very calculated. Um, I don't try to go faster in my race than I've gone during the weekend.

Um, normally I actually go a bit slower in my race run than what I've practiced during practice because you're doing it in a full run top to bottom. Mm-hmm. And it's hard to hold that intensity and that like precision as if you just drop in and you ride for, you know, a minute and then you stop. Um, so for me, the way I approach it, I don't do I.

Any full runs in practice, to be honest, really. Um, usually my qualifier is my first full run of the weekend and my second full run of the weekend is my race run. Like I don't need to do full runs to like get confidence. I feel like it just, it takes energy and focus away from like learning every little line and every little detail.

So I make sure that I practice every section at full race pace before I get to the race at some point. Like I've dialed in everything perfect. And then my race run is just trying to do it all at the same time. And, um, I don't like to do more than like one or two of those. Like I, I'm definitely somebody that likes to like start slow early in practice and like build, build, build, build peak and we're done.

Like I don't wanna just keep doing Yeah. Runs at that pace. Um, there's a lot of risk and a lot of, uh, energy to do full runs like that, so I'm a little different that way. I know a lot of the other guys, like, um, like Danny Hart comes to mind. I don't know if he still does that as much probably, but for sure, like years ago, like dude, he would blow my mind.

Like he would do like maybe only full runs all weekend. I remember that. And you'd look at time training. I'm usually gonna be in dead last in time training. 'cause I stopped and looked at sections and I might have one split where I tried to go fast and I'll have to like do a bunch of, you know, big brain math in my head to figure out what that split was, because that's what I'm trying to figure out.

And, uh, Danny will have three times runs in a row, like in practice. It's not a qualifying day. And I'm just like, I could just not do that. I'd have no energy left at the end of the weekend. And I feel like I would peak early and then by the time I got to the race run, I'd be like, what do I do now? Like now all I can do is mess this up.

Like, I've already done this two days ago. Like, it's like, so for me, I'm, I'm pretty methodical in how I build slow and peak for the race run and I'm done. Um, I think I've just, I've been able to like, work myself into a position. It's hard to do that. Um, but that's been my, my style and I have enough confidence that I, I don't need to just be blown out, you know, full runs to feel like, okay, that's what it feels like and this is, you know, whatever.

I know if I go up for a full run and I do my warmup at the top and I know how to suffer when I'm in a run, like I'll just get her done. And so, um, yeah. Maybe I'm a little different that way than some guys and yeah, that's a very interesting approach. Like, I could have never done that. Yeah. Like, okay. I do think like Danny takes it to the new extreme.

Like doing Yeah. He's on the office was just ridiculous. He'd be just smashing out full, run full and, and going fast. Yeah. But, uh, yeah, I was also like, I, I always wondered how someone like you did that, like not doing a full run in practice and then mm-hmm. Just smashing out a, a quality run or race run.

Yeah. Um, like I always find it like, 'cause I feel like it, the track feels different somehow when you riding in a full run versus when you're doing sections. 'cause like, when you're doing sections, you're hitting everything fresh. And then like, when you're hitting stuff in a full run, obviously you've now got a couple minutes of track behind you, which yeah.

Maybe your body position is a touch different because you, you know, 'cause you've been suffering for a little bit or I don't know. Mm-hmm. At least that's the way I looked at it, but for sure. Yeah. And I think that's where, uh, the confidence comes in a little bit for me that is probably different than some other, um, riders.

Like it's, uh, I just know that I'll be able to manage it when I need to and some people probably can't do that as much. Interesting. And over all the, I mean you, besides the bike that you're on now, uh, what's been the best bike that you've roden? Like if you had to pick like a year, that was just like insane.

Um, hard to say because I would be like, oh, the track that I rode was a really fast bike. I think that was a really good package for what I had. Um, wouldn't wanna race it now though. My bike would like smoke that bike. But, um, it's hard because the technology's honestly like, changed so much over the years.

It's hard to tell. Um, fortunately I haven't had to ride a lot of bad bikes throughout my career, which has been pretty sweet. Um, like I think back, like the Yeti that I rode, the 3 0 3, uh, both versions of it, those were both I think, really good bikes. I never rode anything else around that time, but I really liked those bikes.

If there was a weak link there, it was definitely me, not the bike. Um, that was good. The trek was really good. I feel like that package, um, that bike was really fast. I don't think it was probably the best in the bomb, so the best at whatever, but it, it carried speed. It rolled fast. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I made it stiff enough to be able to slam into stuff and not slow down, which is what I was looking for.

I feel like that bike was really good. Um, really predictable. Like I just, you know, those designs of bikes, um, those simple, what are they call like four bar bike or whatever, like they just, they don't do anything weird. Like they're pretty predictable to me. I've always ridden those really well. That bike was good.

Um, then we went to specialized, I definitely struggled on the year one specialized that I had, which was the stock bike. Um, it was just, I think a sizing thing, honestly. Same thing with intense a little bit. Um. When I went to specialize, I rode a medium, I think at first or something and uh, it was just too small, like in that bike, like was really hard for me to keep on the track.

Um, I really struggled with the stability of it and like being able to trust it. Like I'd go down a straightaway and like at Fort William and just start to hit bumps and the thing would deflect and just like shoot off the side of the track and I just like go blowing off the side of the track wide open and be like, dude, what the heck?

Like I just can't hit things as hard as I wanna hit it. I don't know what the bike's gonna do. So I struggled with that bike, but as much as I struggled and I got 20th at Fort William at the First World Cup, the next weekend when we went to seo, I went to a large or an extra large, whatever the next size up was, and it was too big for me.

But then I qualified second straight away with like what I thought was a pretty crappy run. Um, I ended up getting hurt later that year, so I didn't really get a lot of more tries on that bike. So that bike was, um, it was hard for me to tell 'cause I never like the sizing, like it was either too small or like way too big.

Like I was like right in between on the sizing. So it wasn't really a fair gauge. Um, and then my 14 and 15 specialized, the 14 was a step up. Um, I think I got the right size. I think I got second in the overall that year. Um, that was the year I got the flat tire at Leo Gang, so I think I would've ended on the rim.

I think I would've won the overall that year if it wasn't for that race. Um. And then they came out with that new single-sided frame. That thing was, that thing when we first got it was fast, but that bike was really harsh. That bike kind of sucked to ride like the chain, let's win bike. Um, we made it better through the off season coming into 2015, but I think at the end of 14 is when we got on it.

And I remember we did a test at Angel Fire and uh, I was like, yep, it's fast, but like, holy crap. Do you get feedback through your feet and your hands? Mm-hmm. And like the thing just felt rigid. Um, so that was pretty crazy like that off season. I tested with, uh, Brad Benedict over at Specialized. Like he was really the guy that him and I like, just kind of like he understood what I was looking for.

Um, we did a bunch of testing. They were working on McLaren on like carbon stiffness stuff at the time. So we put sensors on the bike and basically found out like the stiffness of the carbon and something with the link was just like not, and it just made for a really harsh ride. So they kind of massaged, you know, a different link and I think a different layup on some stuff and got that bike to just be a little more compliant.

Um, so that was the 2015 bike, the Chainless bike. That was like the newer version of that. Um, I really liked that bike. I got on with that bike really good. Then we went to yt, um, that bike straight away the first time I rode it. Um. It just felt comfortable and good and neutral, like nothing weird. Kind of like the crest line, honestly, that I'm on now.

Mm-hmm. Like from the first day I rode it I was just like, yeah, I feel like I could go race this tomorrow. Like some bikes you're like, okay, like I like this, but, mm-hmm hmm. Interesting. Like the setup's a little weird or the geo's weird. Like do we have an angle set or do we have like Yeah, we try to get a longer rear end or a lower bottom bracket or like the kinematics kind of back you into a corner so you like, I kind of need a special shock to like get the feel I'm looking for.

But the YT was definitely not the smoothest bike. It didn't do anything like incredible. Um, I felt like it carried speed really good and it was just pretty good at everything. Like it was just a very comfortable, well-rounded race bike. And I was just like, yeah, like not the smoothest thing I've ever ridden through the bumps, but I can ride it fast.

It's super predictable. Like that's actually what I like in a race bike is just something that's like, you know, 90% of everything. 'cause usually they get absolute perfection in one area of the track. You're just gonna sacrifice somewhere else and I don't like doing that. Mm-hmm. So that bike was really good.

Um, that bike was pretty tough. The rougher the track got so. The tracks like Vow of Soul, like when you get the big steps, like repetitive hits, that thing started to get a little wild. Like it was just really hard to hang onto. It was a fast bike, but it would like beat you to death. Like I, I never remember feeling like that bike was smooth, like ever.

Like I go to a bike park and just be like, man, like it's just, it's stiff and it's fast, but it is not very smooth. Uh, great for a race bike though. Um, that bike was good. Then I got on the 29 er, which was basically just actually I got on the newer version of that bike and that's the bike I won. Croatia.

That bike was really good. It was basically a ref, a refined two As from the first one I rode. It was a little better in kind of every way. Um, I did really good on that bike and then started getting hurt, but I think that would've been a really good season. Then we went to Intense. Um, that one was a really tricky one again 'cause I rode that M 29 and I rode it.

Um, the day I tested that bike we rode at Telex, which is a trail in Laguna Beach. That's really rough and fast. Um, and like I said, that YT was never smooth in the bumps, especially like through your feet. And when I got on the M 29, it was too small for me. It was a medium and the reach was like probably 15 mil shorter than what I was used to.

Um, so the bike felt fast and I felt like I had less feedback through my feet, which for that track I thought was really good. Um, I didn't have an opportunity to stay with yt, so it wasn't like I was picking one bike over the other, but when I rode the intents I was like, yeah, this thing's good. Like I can go fast.

If we can kind of like figure out the sizing a little bit and tweak this around, like I think this will be a pretty good package. Um, unfortunately that ended up being a bit of a mission. Like I have never changed more parts to try to get comfortable on a bike in my life than on that bike. Um, a lot of it, there is two things on that bike.

One the size, like the size was just really hard. The extra large was way too big for me and the large was way too str too small for me. I was like literally in the middle. And we would go to national races in the US with two bikes and I'd switch back and forth. Like I raced snowshoe that year and I switched frame sizes on race morning 'cause I was just like, dude, this one is not working.

Like, if, if I could have just had the right size, that probably would've been 50% of my issue. Um, I was just always compromising, riding a too small of a bike or too big of a bike. And we had reach headsets, you know, maxed out everything we could do. It just wasn't, wasn't quite right, the cockpit. So that was a tough one.

And the other thing that, that bike. I like a bike that has a platform in the middle, mid stroke that I can really push off and like generate speed. I kind of, I don't know if it's my BMX background or what, but like I like to pump the track as I go. And I like a bike that's responsive and that bike just kind of lagged in the rear.

Like, that's why I think when I rode Laguna when it was pinned and really hard pack and choppy, I was like, man, this thing's really smooth in the back. And it was, it was a stable bike in that way, but it rode so low in the travel. When I got to the World Cups, I really struggled with, like, if I made the shocks stiff enough to have the holdup and the responsiveness, I wa I wanted, then it was like you just couldn't get the thing deep into the travel and it was like really harsh.

And if I made the bike soft to feel good deeper in the travel, it was just felt dead off the top. So I was always battling the sizing and the shock on that bike. So that's one of the bikes I definitely struggled with. Um, then we went to the prototype version. All that was pretty messy because that's when covid happened and I had injuries, so I never was on the bike more than like a month or so.

We were trying to prototype, but I wasn't riding hardly very much with my injuries. So, and then Covid happened, so it just really kind of put us on our back foot for a while. Um, then we came out with that four bar bike in 22. That was kind of a step towards the current M1 that they have. Mm-hmm. I really liked that bike.

It was, uh. Super stable, super predictable. I rode that bike really well. It was heavy as crap though. I think my race bike was like closing in on 44 pounds and it was no way, not fast on the straightaways. Like you get to V to Soul and that thing would eat, but on the straightaways, when you're just trying to like get it out of a corner and accelerate it, it was just so heavy that I just knew I was giving up a lot of that free, like rolling speed time.

Um, that's where I felt like I was like losing the races that year. Mm-hmm. Um, and then we got on the M1, which that was the bike. Dakota and I developed a lot. Um, we put a ton into that bike. I felt like that was the bike I needed to go start winning races. And then, um, I got hurt at the first race and never got to really race that thing, but that bike sold, that's a really good bike.

Um, so yeah, it was nerve wracking for me when I got on Crest Line. Um, it was definitely a bit of a risk 'cause the last VPP bike I rode was that intense and. The M 29 and I had problems with that bike. Um, not because of the suspension system. Now looking back it was a sizing and a kinematic thing. Um, but obviously like I was hurt when I signed the cress line contract, so I didn't ride the bike before I signed the contract.

And uh, I had just gotten done developing that, that M1 for literally like five years of like feedback and testing. I think like the entire time I was at intense was like building up to like, okay, we got our bike now. And then it was like, just kidding, we're gonna go back to a VPP bike that we just spent four years building something that wasn't A VPB.

So I was just like, uh, but the kinematics on it and everything looked really good and honestly like fairly similar to what we were looking at. I chatted with Nico a bit. He had actually a little bit of input into helping with that bike. Um, and the group that built it, and I'm looking at the numbers, I was chatting with some past engineers that I've worked with, um, as well, and like, Hey, what do you guys think?

You guys know me, you know these numbers. Like they actually look pretty close. And they're like, yeah, they actually, yeah, if you mess around with the link a little bit, like you could get it pretty close. And I was like, okay. So we ended up doing it. And the Crestline dude, honestly like. Uh, I was very surprised 'cause they didn't have, like, I mean, Nico helped with that bike a little bit and Troy didn't build a bike, he thought would be fun.

But this wasn't like, they had some big race team, like Blinken stop was on the bike, but he didn't have a lot of feedback. Like, I rode the exact same bike he did. Um, but from the day I got on that bike, everything just sit, like, sat in the right position. It's like the most comfortable bike I've ever ridden for sure.

Um, I, I, part of that, I think also like the package of the Olin suspension, the Fox suspension was always really fast, but it was pretty harsh the way I had to set it up to go fast. And I haven't ridden their latest stuff, so I, I can't really comment on that. But Olin's stuff, like they managed to find the balance of like really good, like suppleness off the top, like small bump sensitivity that where it doesn't beat you up but then still has enough support deeper in the stroke to hold you up.

So between that suspension and that bike, like, dude, I just, I mean I think the results showed, like I didn't ride it at all. I rode it for two weeks, went to National champs, got second. Mm-hmm. And then jumped straight in the World Cups and was like off the couch basically with no fitness or time. I did zero testing on that bike last year.

Zero. Like literally no suspension testing? No, outside of the races. Like I just went to the race. I go talk to, uh, TJ at Olins and I'm like, Hey dude, I need more support in the bottom. And he's like, all their stuff is like, uh, dampers. Like they don't, they don't tune things that much. They're just like, they listen to me and they're like, all right, I'll build you a damper for that.

And then like, come back in 30 minutes. And then they're like, here you go. Try this. And then I'd ride it and every race, as I got faster, I'd be like, Hey, I need a little bit more support. And he's like, okay, I'll build you another damper. And so he go get another one. And uh, but really quick, like that just bike is one of those bikes that I feel like is very well rounded.

Does everything well, um, it is really light, which was interesting 'cause I've been riding really heavy bikes for the last, I don't know, five years. The aluminum prototypes said intense. Uh, my bike right now is like maybe 38 pounds with like mm-hmm. A coil shock, aluminum bars, aluminum cranks, like it's not built up super light.

Um, but yeah, so I don't know. I just gave you like a 20 minute answer to probably a simple question. I could have just said the Trek or another bike, but that's the play by play of all my mics. Not all. No, it's cool. I mean, I got like in depth review of like Yeah, yeah. Favorite bike? I would say the one that I feel like is really good is honestly the one I'm on right now.

I think just part of technology increasing each year. Um, and like I said, just the comfort I had on it straight away. Like there's a few things that I wanna mess around with now that I've ridden it a little bit. Um, but yeah, like that's a, a bike that can go to a World Cup race and go really fast and I can ride it at the bike park and it doesn't like kill me to ride.

So it's a pretty good bike. It's fun. And I also realize Troyan is South African as well. Yeah. Yeah. Money. You're bro. Yeah. Bruce Transplant, uh, yeah. Uh, you mentioned it, I don't know if you can speak to this or not, but I was just curious because I remember like after the, after you got injured in 2018, that season you were not whitey.

And then the end of the year, you mentioned just now that you didn't have the opportunity to continue with them. Mm-hmm. Can, like, can you speak to what actually happened there and why you guys didn't continue? Yeah. Um, a bit of a weird one. Um, yeah, we're, we're all good now. I know a lot of the guys over there still.

It was a, it was a disappointing one when it happened. It, it surprised me a little bit. I wasn't very stoked on how they managed that. But, um, Marcus, the owner there, like, he's a businessman and he definitely just makes the decisions he want. Like it was a bold decision to bring me onto the program when they did.

Mm-hmm. Like, just as like, this is what I'm doing. I don't care what anybody thinks, suck at everybody. We're doing it. And, uh, so yeah, it was a little bit of a weird one at the end of the YT contract, basically, they had given me an offer around, uh, Croatia when I won that race. And it was, I'm a little foggy on the details, but it was a very similar offer to what I had been on.

And I just felt like what YT was after my first three years compared to when I came on the brand, I was like, all right, I'm not gonna take full credit for everything, but I obviously had a massive part in putting them on the map, right? Like we took a brand no one had heard of and went and won the first World Cup and then won two out of three titles and probably would've won the third if I wouldn't have got hurt.

It was like, YT was like, dude, they were selling bikes. Like we made them a lot of money and I felt like I was as good as I'd ever been. I won Croatia. And so I was like, I just wanted a little bit of a bump on the offer they had given me. It was like, Hey, we did three years. Like I've crushed it for you guys.

Like can I have a little bit more here? A little more freedom there. Um, and so it, it kind of wasn't like, uh, it was like, okay, yeah, we'll look at it and let's chat. And then I got hurt at Fort William and I kind of just like. Went dark for a few months because I was like, I just was trying to train and get back up to speed.

So like negotiating my contract, like for both of us, we were kind of like, it was the middle of the season. They were like, yep, we'll, we'll look at this, we'll work on it, figure it out, don't worry about it. Just focus on getting healthy and like, get back to racing. And for me, like I was just so bummed to be hurt.

Like I just wanted to like get back and try to win races. So we didn't really pick the conversation back up for a few months and we were probably like a month out right around the time I got the 29 er, I think. And I was chatting with somebody over there that wasn't Marcus, it was somebody else that was kind of like the middle person.

And they kind of told me like, Hey, yeah, we're all good. Like, just, just race your bike. Like you're just getting back on this new 29 er, like, focus on that. Like, we'll get this deal sorted, everything's good. Like, um, you know, like just, just let's get through this last race and we will, we'll iron it out and we'll keep it going.

Mm-hmm. Or whatever. And I was like, okay, cool. And uh, like I said, I was just so focused on trying to get back that I just like, that was my, that was where my head was at, was just trying to get back to winning. And, uh, so we got done with world Champs and even like a week before World Champs, the same person was kind of like, yeah, we're, we'll, we'll Marcus will sit down with you after the race and you guys can sort it all out and blah, blah, blah.

So I, uh, I met Marcus after the race, uh, like literally like a few hours after I crossed the finish line at a hotel. And he is like, Hey, um, thanks for everything. It's been a great ride, or something like that. He's like, but we are not gonna continue downhill racing. And uh, so that's the end of it. And I was like, okay.

Like, wow. I was like, dude, like, probably would've started looking at some other options a little earlier, like if I would've known that. So I wasn't super happy with that, obviously. Um, but I just insane, maybe I could have pushed harder earlier or whatever is their decision to make, you know, but I was like, I was a little salty on that one.

Um, so I was like, okay, well thanks dude. And, um, you know, at the time, like Martin was managing the whole program. Uh, YT sponsored the program, and Martin, we used Martin's vehicle. He was team manager, that whole thing. And I, so in my mind I was like, okay, well, all right, we have an incredible group of co-sponsors with all the other brands I rode for, uh, the entire team infrastructure that I had built with Martin, the staff, our riders, everything was there.

So it was like, okay, well we'll just go find a new frame brand and we'll plug it into our existing package of a program and like. I just need to find a bike that I feel I can go fast. So I talked to Martin and, and I don't really wanna dig into the weeds. Martin and I are all, are all good. Um, but basically Martin had a deal going on kind of behind the scenes with yt and they decided to stay together and keep some things going.

And so within a couple of days, that was the rest of my program and different deal. And I was like, uh, I was like, dude, like, so anyway, so I was in a spot where I, I still had incredible support from, you know, E 13 and TRP, all of our brands. Um, I needed a race program. I wanted to run my own team still. So I needed somebody to manage that program for me and I needed a frame deal.

So I actually reached out to, to Jeff Steber. I think it was literally that night. Um, after I had the conversation with yt, I went back to the hotel room and I think I picked up the phone and called Jeff. 'cause Jeff and I had always chatted for years about like how cool it would be if I could get on intent somehow.

'cause I lived like 10 minutes from mm-hmm. Right there by Temecula. I was a huge fan of the brand. I think they were a fan of me. Like we were just like, we would always chat in passing and like, we'd even talked, I think like earlier in that year, may or the previous year, I can't remember, at some point, like almost a little more serious where he was like, Hey, we're kind of working on some stuff like.

We might be open to something, but it's just maybe like, I need some more time. But keep it in mind, I'm not ready now. But I think they had some new investors coming in and they were looking to change some things up and I was like, cool man, well keep me posted. You never know. And uh, so I called 'em and was like, Hey man, I've, uh, I would be interested in chatting for next year.

There might be an opportunity. And he was like, it's interesting you're calling, we've just had some big meetings recently and this might actually be possible. Like basically like, come see me when you get back into California and we'll chat. And so anyways, long story short, um, that ended up working out.

It was good timing for them. And so they ended up being the frame brand. And then, uh, Todd lik, which was my, um, fitness coach for a while, he was running the Norco factory racing team. I called him 'cause he, his contract was up and he wasn't continuing with Norco. And I was like, Hey man, like I don't, I need basically a team manager run my program for me.

I have the frame deal, I have all the other sponsors, I have the budget, everything's figured out. I just need somebody to run my program for me. And, uh, I knew him really well, obviously, and he was like, dude, I'm in, let's do it. So, um, that was basically our five year run with intense. And one year at Crestline last year.

So yeah. Crazy man. A lot of stuff that happens. Lots of, uh, behind the stuff with brands, highs and lows, things that are really cool and things that sometimes aren't very cool, but it's, uh, you know, you race as long as I've raced and done all this stuff. Mm-hmm. It's like, it's just part of a career and at the end of the day, everybody's trying to make the decisions they believe are best for themselves.

So I don't really, I don't hold any hard feelings. Um, I'm cool with everybody, even if some of the things back then were a bit annoying at the moment. Yeah, I would imagine that would be a little bit, uh, of a surprise given that you, you were like the guy at the time. Um, yeah. But, uh, I was gonna ask you also what you know about what's, what's on the cards next, and I'm assuming, I mean, obviously now you're full blown into the whole wind rock in, into the bike park and all that.

How did, how did that all sort of come about because you were, you moved across the country like it was mm-hmm. Yeah. Quite a big, quite a big thing. Yeah. Um, yeah, the move came about a little bit through, um, when Covid happened. Um, my wife and I, Lauren, she, she got, we got married in July, 2020, like right in the middle of Covid.

And the week after we got married, we drove to Montana and that's where she was born and raised. Um. So we went to go visit there, and I'd never been, I lived in Colorado for a couple years when I was riding for, um, Yeti the first few years. But I just, dude, I like, love Montana. Like it, it was just the, the second we, we kind of rolled into town there where we were going.

I was like, dude, this is the best place I've ever been. Like I, I really liked it. So we were looking at real estate pretty quick. I was, and uh, uh, my CPA is a good buddy of mine and, and he has a house there and he was like, Hey dude, if you could buy a house here and be here for six months of the year to have residency, you would probably save enough in taxes to like pay for your house payment here.

It's like, if you wanted to, just a heads up. And I was like, huh? I was like, well, that'd be pretty cool. So, um, that kind of just more got the conversation going. So we started spending quite a bit of time in Montana and during Covid, dude, things were crazy and we don't gotta dig into it too crazy, but like, California was like mental, like, it was like, it was a full lockdown.

Everybody would yell at you if you went anywhere without a mask. Like, it was like, I'm not an angry person. I'm pretty chill. And like, there's a lot of days where I'm like, dude, I'm going to strangle somebody. Like, so, like, you guys are too much pushed to me to the limit. And uh, so we'd go to Montana and it was like, dude, it was just like, you could breathe easy.

Like everybody was friendly. It was just normal life. Like people took their precautions if they wanted to, but it was just like, I. And then you'd land back in California and LAX and just like madness. And it was like such a, like a polar opposite comparison. And around the same time, in 2021, we came out here for the Tennessee National for the first time.

And Tennessee was the same thing. Like people were just so friendly. There was so many less people. Um, the riding was epic at the bike park. Like peop it was just like a good vibe. And so we used, we bought a really small house near the bike park that I could, I was looking to try to bump my kind of program up in the off season and ride better trails.

Um, and so we started spending quite a bit of time here and in Montana and just every time we went back to California, we were just like, dude, like Lauren and I were like, this feel like stressed here. It's like heavy. Like, it's just like there's so many people. Everybody's like angry. Not everybody like I, you know, so much of California I still love.

But in comparison it was definitely like a way chiller vibe in Montana or Tennessee than when we went back to California. And it was, it was so expensive. It was so much like more affordable out here in ways and like, just going back and forth After a while we had a, a friend group, kind of a church group of ours.

Um, a lot of my best friends and we're kind of all honestly in the same spot where like they've all got families and kids and with the lockdowns and the rules and the mandates and all this stuff, they were kind of like, man, I, like, a lot of them were from the south originally and they were like, we're kind of over this.

Like, we don't really want to be here anymore. And so like, literally like I. Some of our best friends all were like, they all work from home too. And they were like, well, we should move. Where, where are we going? And I was like, well, we're spending a lot of time in Montana and Tennessee. Both of those places are awesome.

I don't think I can do Montana full time 'cause I can't ride there for like seven months of the year with the weather or whatever, five months at least. Um, but I was like, Tennessee is pretty sweet. And so some of our friends, we came and started looking at houses, um, here around Nashville and we just really liked it.

The pace of life, the cost of living, everything was really good. Um, Windrock, the riding was awesome. So I had that covered. So yeah, we had finished that house in California that I was building that I thought I would never leave ever. And, uh, we sold it and moved out here. We bought a place near Nashville and now we kind of split time between here and the winters and more Montana in the summer.

And, uh, did we love it? It's really good. I definitely miss some things about California, um, especially like the desert and just the views, like the wide open cities everywhere. Um, I get that at our Montana house, so I kinda get my fix there, but it's, uh, yeah, dude, Tennessee living's good. Everybody's super friendly.

Um, I grew up in a really small, kind of like desert town, you know, horse community and, and it definitely feels more like that out here and in Montana. Mm-hmm. Um, so as I've gotten older and I've gotten married and kind of settled down, like, you know, this is definitely a more the, the life that we like to live.

So anyways, yeah, moved out here, did that, and then wind rock was just from riding and training out there a bunch. Like, pretty much almost like solely like that was the only place I rode and trained most of the last couple of years. Um, I just really liked the bike park, the people there, the vibe. Um, I had chatted with Sean A.

Little bit, who was the previous owner and um, honestly like when I hurt my elbow, I had nothing to do and so my wife laughs at me. She's like, you can't have off time because I can't sit still. So I had my surgery and it was like two weeks later. I was like, I think we should try to, to, uh, take over the bike park.

My wife's like, what? I'm like, yeah, I've been chatting with Sean A. Little bit. I think he wants to switch it up. I think we should take it over and, and, uh, and try to figure that out. So, um, it's basically how it happened. Like when I was hurt, I just, um, I ended up, uh, you know, chatting with Sean a bit and we kind of came to an agreement to take over the lease that he had with the park.

And, um, yeah, I, I really just did it 'cause I thought it would be fun. Um, I felt like we could invest in the park and, and try to continue to grow it. Um, I really like riding and training and spending time there, so it was just like. For me, for something to do, like as I transition over the next, you know, five years or so, I was like, I thought it would be something sweet.

So that's kind of how that came about. And it's been a lot of work. I don't know if I fully understood how much work that was gonna be. Um, I'm like, yeah, we're gonna build cool trails and it's gonna be the best thing. It's like for the first year we were building like roads and parking lots and bike shops and infrastructure and it's, it's been a massive amount of work.

Um, and we're kind of just now getting to the point where it feels like it's starting to pay off. Like we're, we're getting to be able to like really start focusing on the trails. And, um, this event we're doing here in a couple weeks with Red Bull coming on as title sponsor, that's been amazing. Um, you know, we got like a ton of the top riders coming out to race and so that's really cool.

So it's, uh, yeah, it's been cool. Learned a lot, had a lot of good context for growth on a personal level as well. And, um, yeah, it's, it's been sweet. Be sick to, I'd love to get out there at some point. I. Yeah, do it be a perfect place to, to come do some filming with you as well? Yeah, for sure. I know we need to do that.

We'll do it if you, uh, pick any other month of the year besides this one. I can, uh, get a day, we'll make it happen. Um, dude, uh, the final question I'll ask every guest is, what's your definition of success? What does it mean to you? The word? Um, that's a good question. Um, for me, I think that, uh, I, I try to focus on, um, the effort that goes into, you know, whether it's my racing or life or whatever, like, like contentment I guess, versus happiness.

'cause happiness kind of comes and goes, especially in racing. Like I can be very content with my effort for the weekend and be really not happy with the end result. And there they're not the same thing. Um, so I think success for me is like, um, you know, as a, as a child of God and the, the faith that I have, I think, um, being a good husband, first and foremost to my wife, um, 'cause I'm committed there, like, um, having a good relationship with her and, um.

A good life there. Like that is a, a level of success that I had never experienced, I guess, outside of mm-hmm. Before that happened, you know, I got it in racing and things like that, but raise results come and go. Like the love with me and my wife and the relationship we have and, um, kind of hanging with your best friend every day like that.

It's a different type of success for sure. You know, it kind of chills me out on the racing a little bit. You're like, okay. Like mm-hmm. You know, hot shot, like racing is important and it's like, it's cool and you're competitive, but it's like, this is better. So it's, um, you know, that, um, being a good friend, you know, we have some really good friends here and, um, you know, I think just that balance of life, like for me, I, it's really hard to put into words, man.

Like, I'm so blessed. Like the career I've had as much as the last few years have sucked results wise. Like, I've had the best years of my life on a personal level, like being married, um, living here in Tennessee, we have a really cool friend group that we get to spend time with. Um, I get to do something I love for a living, like, dude, it's, it's, it's pretty good.

So I think success for me wouldn't be determined by, you know, money or any of those other things. I think good relationships, um, that's really like the sweetness of life. Um. You know, enjoying a, sounds cheesy maybe, but like a good sunset or like a fun trail ride with some friends, like mm-hmm. It's really like the simple things in life that I've found are like the sweetest.

Um, so yeah, I think, um, yeah, knowing kind of my future secured with my faith, um, having good relationship with Lauren and our friends and just, just kind of living a more quiet, peaceful life, I guess that's kind of like when we're on the porch in Montana, just hanging out watching the sunset, like winning world cups is pretty cool, but that's maybe better.

It's, uh, you know, different types of success. So yeah, I think, um, I'm fortunate to have a, you know, little bit of a balance where I got the competitive success and I get to like, go after that. And then the home life is really good too. So, um, yeah, I don't know if that's a super specific answer, but it's kind where I'm at, dude.

Awesome. Aaron, thanks so much, man. This has been, uh, it's been an absolute pleasure and it's been a rad to, to pick your brain. Thank you, brother. Appreciate the, uh, your patience over the last month and a half trying to, uh, wrangle me down to finally get on this. But, uh, yeah, good times and, uh, yeah, all the best with, uh, trying to make this happen in the future, man.

I enjoyed it and, uh, yeah, I hope you killed it at it. Thanks so much, man. If you guys enjoyed this episode, please don't forget to like, and subscribe and drop a comment and let me know which guests you wanna see, and I will do my best to get them on and to see more episodes, click the playlist right up here.

That was iconic.