Alan Hatherly, how does it feel to be the best cross country rider in the world? It's unreal. I mean, it's been a proper journey. Smashed myself a lot with the downhill. Really? Yeah, I mean, broke the jaw like completely off and broke the right arm. And the motivation is so high. You have just an ounce of energy.

You're going to go out and smash yourself some more. I want this so bad. It doesn't matter what it takes.

Alan Hatherly is currently the best cross country mountain biker in the world. Hatherly was born in South Africa. And after dabbling in BMX and downhill, he set his sights on cross country World Cup racing. In 2024, it all came together as he won the World Championship, the World Cup overall title, and got an Olympic bronze medal.

Cross country championship, Alan Hathaway, the world champion for 2024. But now in a surprise move, he has switched gears to tackle professional road racing in 2025. Is it fun, the actual racing part? Yeah, it's like a game of chess. If you're riding along at like 80 percent and then the race happens, and then you go completely cross eyed when you follow.

You're just dying, you can't breathe, you can't descend, you can't feel your arms. It's horrible. Giant launch video. It was 8 hours of filming. I mean, you know, sprinting up, down, left, right, follow shots, drones, the works, you know. The reel that went out was 45 seconds long. If you could give people some advice what has helped you and what you'd recommend if they wanted to get to where you are I would say probably

 Alan Hatherly, uh, dude, thanks for coming on. I'm excited for this one Yeah, it's going to be a good chat. Looking forward to it. Dude, when last did I, when last did I see you, actually? Yeah, I think it was probably LeoGang World Cup of 22. I think, this is funny. It could be 21, even. Dude, at the time, the last couple years, it's been, been insane, especially for you.

Like, how does it feel to be the best cross country rider in the world? Yeah, no, it's unreal. I mean, it's been a proper journey, I would say. I mean, obviously, Kind of, I think knocked on the Door was my first under 23 world title in 16 and um, no la sorry, it was 2018 actually. And yeah, I was wondering, yeah, yeah, this a little nugget.

Um, and then, yeah, kind of built momentum from there. Struggled a bit in the first year in Elite. It's quite a big jump. And then, yeah, kind of figured my 19, your first year. Yeah. Yeah. And then to that year as well. And then like, thought I was King Kong, you know, smash everything. Yeah, I got to the World Cups in May and got walloped and, uh, learned that, you know, you still need to put in, just because you're under 23 world champ, it means nothing when you, when you go to elite.

And, yeah, I've been quite a journey making my way through the ranks in, in that field. And, yeah, eventually made it and achieve, achieved my dream. And I think every, every athlete's dream to, to wear the rainbows in the elite category. And. I mean, maybe, maybe you can take us back, like, to the, how this whole thing started, because the first time I remember you was in 2010 in Joburg, in Fort Klapperkopf.

Some, like, little, uh, uh, mowed grass track down the, down the hillside there, and you were on a, on a moorwood, I think, back then, racing downhill. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it started before that. I mean, I was doing BMX, you know, six years old already, kind of racing all the, the national rounds. I mean, it was for like four of us in the start line back then, but yeah, it counted.

Um, and then, yeah, we moved from, from there to like inter school racing. Kind of was actually inspired by Greg a lot and just was doing a bit of motocross on the side at that point and figured that That downhill would be pretty cool as well. Like yeah started with downhill I think I was eight or nine years old and then Yeah, it was really really hooked on it and did like cross country just on the side just to like take the box Just like you know, it was like a part of school sports.

You had to do something So like adventure racing was the category it fell into the cycling that I was doing So I just did that just to like, keep the school happy. I just wanted to do Daniel, but they wouldn't like, you know, that was a wee petting school, get uplifts and stuff. And they wouldn't let you get away with that.

But yeah, ended up. Doing cross country inside, downhill was the main focus and then I don't know like there's just a turning point when I was 16 years old I mean, I'm not gonna quote the years cuz I'm gonna get it wrong But yeah, I got a got an offer to like pursue cross country on its own And like the condition was that downhill would take a back step and I figured at that point, you know I might as well go for it.

And obviously Bowery was a big inspiration as well It was really wanted to follow in his footsteps at that point and like I figured, you know, I might as well Give this cross country thing a bash and did all the testing and stuff and they said like the engine was really good and I would Have a good chance at making it so I just run with it and then I think yeah, I did a few few more downhill events locally after that, but Kind of stop focusing on it.

I think what also didn't help was injuries. Like, I don't know if you remember, but smashed myself a lot with the downhill. Really? Yeah, I mean broke the jaw like completely off and broke the right arm. It was like chaos and it was like back to back within one year. I did both. Yeah, steep, steep learning curve, you know, what do you say?

The game is rough. Yeah, okay. Cause that was gonna be my, that was what I was interested in, why you made the switch. But, uh, I guess that's part of it. I mean, but you, you got, I mean, you also had some injuries in cross country and marathon as well, right? Less. Less. But I remember, was it the, was it the epic that you crashed and you broke your wrist?

Yeah, it was Tankwa. Oh, Tankwa. Yeah, it was actually 2018, the year I won the world title, like, we had the Home World Cup. Good prep. Yeah, Home World Cup here in Stellenbosch and, uh, yeah, there I was, like, three weeks out going to smash myself and no Home World Cup for me. I think they kind of put the World Cup on, you know, for me, because I was second at the World Championships the year before, so it was like, kind of expected that I was going to be there and perform, and they did a good job.

Um, but yeah, yeah. And then, yeah, obviously from junior years, when I started World Cup racing, I got the opportunity to have a go there. What was your first junior year? It was Valdesal. What, what year, do you know, what year was it? I was 17, I mean, 28 now. Which year did you stop downhill? Which year did you move away from Darwin?

2013? Okay. Oh yeah, I'm trying to think, yeah. Crazy. Yeah, I remember, I mean, I went for like, I mean, for those that know that, that cross country is so good there in, in Italy. Got kind of like a flat start loop, you go out and you U turn and you cut back through the woods a bit and then you hit the first climb.

And I remember starting, going straight to the front and like, it was super easy to get to the front and I was like, Oh, these guys are soft and it's going to be easy to win this race. And then like, yeah, we hit the first climb and I got absolutely smoked. I gave them a proper lead out into the, into the climb.

I think I saw maybe, I don't know, top 20 or something, but. Yeah, I kind of realized like, okay, this is, this is a different league. And there's also a hundred odd guys on the start line. I think previously probably 30 or 40 was a lot. Yeah. At a, at a national round on the start line. In South Africa you mean?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the depth of field is, it's crazy. And it's like, uh, really tough to make the transition as a South African guy racing bikes to try become a pro overseas. And when, I mean, you know, I, I guess, I mean, you know, the game, I noticed I had the same deal with downhill. I mean, obviously I never got to, to win all champs, but just the same dealing with, you come from here and you, you think because you won a national, you won national champs.

You're like, Oh, sweet. Like I'm going to go overseas and just like smoke it. And you get there and you get absolutely destroyed. Uh, it's just, there's just so many guys, people, guys and girls, but so many more people there that are faster and the tracks are different. And it's just like. It's almost like I, for downhill, I don't know, maybe you experience the same, but I found it's almost like a different sport.

Like, it's the similarities, but the, from the tracks to the way, the, what you need to do training wise, like everything is just so different. Um, and the professionalism and everything is just like on another level. Yeah, I think it's just exposure. Like I think, you know, the, the biggest thing is, uh, the actual trails and the conditions.

I mean, we have good trails, yeah, but the, the length. I mean, obviously I gave up downhill, I think, quite a long time ago, so I can't speak too much on the downhill. But just from what I see from the outside, when I'm at the actual World Cups, I'd say the tracks are like, you know, really, really steep, technical and super long.

Like, I don't think we really have similar conditions to train on. And I think it's kind of the same for cross country as well. Like we have good tracks here, but they're not, not at the same level as what it is in Europe, but well, across the world now at the World Cups. So I think it's, you know, that's one part of the adjustment, I think it's like a really good platform to, to get your feet and like get yourself in a good shape in South Africa, but for sure to take it to the next step, like it takes so much time overseas to just get used to those living conditions and race conditions and just what you get exposed to in general, I would say.

I mean, obviously you had an interesting background because you started in, you started in BMX, right? Was that the first, like, racing? Yeah, it was really, really, like, really cool. So, like, you have the BMX side, the downhill side, the motocross side, and you've done, obviously, marathon racing as well, and now, then you moved to intercross country, and now you're also dabbling in road as well.

I mean, like, how much impact do you think, like, all those other things had on You know, helping you to get where you are. I mean, do you think, do you think it really makes a big difference having those as a, as a base? Or do you think you can do it without doing the BMX and doing the, you know, the other things as well?

That's a tough one. Like, I think it's just like. Who I am really, you know, like I, I'm always wanting to be challenged and looking for, for something different. And I kind of, I'm a believer that I find resilient and like able to deliver on like each different type of thing I commit to. Like, is this going to make me a better athlete in general?

So that's kind of like, you know, the big reason of change is looking for a new path to grow and develop and get back in the deep end. And like, I haven't raised the road at the highest level and I figured. After the season I had, it was the perfect opportunity and perfect time to get in the deep end and learn again, you know.

Cause like the last two, three years, you know, like I'm sure you also sit down with yourself and you think, how do I make big improvements? How do I go faster? And we've been fortunate enough to find ways to improve, obviously, and work our way forwards, but no, like, significant jumps. And I figured, you know, with L.

A. Olympics being my big goal, like, in four years time, I need to do something drastic to make big improvements if I want to have a shot at going for gold there. And, I mean, now is the perfect time to, yeah, get in the deep end of the road and, and go for it. I'm still doing the mountain bike on the side, because, I mean, that's the, the passion and, you know, what I know best.

And I think, for me, the balance of both, I think, is going to be my key to success. And So, are you going to be doing the full season still for mountain bike or selected events? Yeah, I'd be selected events to be for sure but reduced because to manage everything in one year is just asking too much I think yeah, you know, I'm I I'm really calculated and like I want to do a good job at the races I do yeah, so I don't want to try and do everything and then just be able to do everything, you know I want to really target specific events and and do my best at those and Have you done some road races already?

Yeah, I mean locally I've done a lot. You've done August and stuff, right? Yeah, so I've done all the local stuff for the last few years. And then I did a small stint with the EF Nippo development team. And did all the Croatia races, which was It's pretty wild. Went at the, at a savage time of year, I would say it was raining and hailing and proper winds and stuff.

And obviously our development team, so a bunch of youngsters, super strong, but, uh, I didn't really learn too much because the experience like was not super high. Obviously everyone is trying to find their feet to that level. So yeah, I'm just really excited now, like being at world tour level with the best in the world, like as teammates.

And I think it's the best way for me to get up to speed as fast as possible. And I think from cross country, I'd like to believe that the engine is there and that it's decent. So, I mean, from the testing we've done so far, it's been within the ballpark. So it's just a matter of learning the ropes now and getting good guidance to navigate.

But, yeah, I've heard some horror stories of feeding through the bunch and making it to the finals. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to it. It's not so long now before we get the first test. And, um, I mean, what's it been like in terms of, you know, the, the training and all of that, like, how has that, what's the biggest difference been for road versus XC?

Yeah, for sure. There's a few extra hours added in, like, obviously the, the road racing, the endurance, like, becomes a big factor, especially like fatigue resistance. That's the word that they use a lot. It's being able to deliver a really good performance at the end of the stage. So, you know, four or five hours deep, you have to be able to do the power that you can do in the first hour, basically.

I mean, that's like what it is. Um, but yeah, I mean, otherwise than that, it's not, not too, too different, I would say, I think the biggest difference at the minute is that, you know, normally with the World Cup season being in May, that becomes the, the focus and target that the shape is perfect and where you need to be for May, whereas now I'm racing end of January and it's a target event, so it's like fast forwarding the, the shape quite, quite a long way forward and then trying to hold it all the way through to October for end of season.

So I think that's going to be a big risk this year, it's just balancing that and resting at the right times and Yeah, not biting off more than I can chew, I guess. I mean obviously, but I would have assumed it must be because obviously road, road races are quite a bit longer. So, I mean XC, what's the XC World Cup?

Hour and a half normally? The remainder, or even less. Yeah. Um, so I would have assumed that it's, it should be a bit different because you obviously, you don't need to perform for, for so many hours. Yeah, I mean obviously the intensity is completely different. I mean cross country is absolute max like from from when you fall away I mean, yeah, it's like, you know between 175 and 180 for me for like the whole race.

Yeah for most every every World Cup I do in a max of 190 194 So, I mean, you literally are riding, like, at the rev limit, like, all the time, you know. So, like, That is mental. That, that, I think, is going to help the rev. I have the same, but it's only for, like, four minutes. Yeah, no, it's, it's crazy. Like, I mean, if you, if you're not doing that, I mean, you're getting dropped there.

I mean, the level is so high and it's constantly evolving. Like, you know, you go and do your research, you make a five percent. Improvement for the next season and you're exactly where you were, like, you know, nothing, nothing changed. Everyone made 5 percent improvement. Um, but yeah, I think I would like to believe that, you know, being able to sustain that kind of effort for the hour 20 or so, like when the road race unfolds and like everything starts to split, then I'll be able to go with and sustain that attack to, to make something of it basically.

I think, like, in and around that, normally it's just, like, controlled bunch work and using your teammates. I mean, obviously, road is a big team sport, so it's, you know, riding along, saving energy, using your team to get you to the climb where you have to go for it, so. Yeah, it's a whole new world, really. I mean, got a lot to, a lot to learn.

I think we should revisit this conversation in 12 months time. Flipping out. That's, that's mind blowing. Like, I mean, obviously, you know, cross country is, is hard, but like that, to sustain that heart rate. So when you're doing training, are you, are you doing like, also doing that? Or do you only do like 90 minutes at 180 heart rate on race day?

Or are you doing that in interval training as well? No, no, it's like a lot of repeated intervals for the duration of an hour and a half. Okay. Not all the time it'll be that long. Sometimes it could be, you know, 40 minutes of interval work or sometimes it could be two and a half and obviously at lower intensity, but it's always like repeats of some sort with it be circuits, sprint repeats, climb repeats, something along those lines or even motor pacing.

It's like, there's a few ways of doing it, but it's never as intense as, as a race, like Yeah, the way because my coach is Phil Dixon. Yeah, and yeah, his philosophy has always been to use the racing as like the top top end And you do like kind of your 80 percent and under in training and then you use the racing to like put the cherry on top okay, so we always do like a race or two in prep for the important ones to just really dial in and ride at that 180 for the whole race just to get condition for that and then Go to the event we've been targeting.

This is so hectic. Yeah, I think it's hard because a lot of guys think they need to rinse it all the time. And they need to ride at 180 halfway. And you know, when they do an endurance ride, they need to be going for it. And I think when they actually need to do it in the race, they can't. Because I think like mentally and physically, they're just.

Yeah. So I think it's just, yeah, like having that different approach of really like investing and going for it. Like in the race and being hungry to red line, basically. I think if you just redline all yourself and redline all the, all the time and smoke yourself, it's going to be quite hard to do when you actually need to do it.

Yeah. Yeah. I think, uh, you know, I think that's this modern culture as well of like, More, more, more and you see these motivational videos like push through it, you know Just but I think it's quite easy also to go too far the wrong way and yeah, that actually does more harm than good. You end up digging yourself a hole and Then wondering why you're not getting stronger and then you like put more work in because yeah I think the other thing is also it's like, it's so generic training, like a lot of guys are on such a generic plan that they are told you need to do this, this and this and it's going to work.

And I, I, like, I mean, with my training, it's very specific to me, you know, like we have something that works for me and it's not something that would then be, obviously with Cannondale, Phil's the coach and head performance lead for the team. And, you know, obviously he over had the oversight on all of us and trained all of us.

And. You know, we didn't have identical training programs because we each needed different things to get the, the best out of ourselves. And it was, you know, phone calls every day, like as feedback. Every day? Yeah. I mean, it's every day to see how the day was, how the session was like, just, it could be like, yeah, all good.

Or it could be, yeah, I felt this and this, you know, maybe I didn't sleep so good last night. And then like, it gets adjusted, you know, then as opposed to like, if you have a one week plan. You know, and it's not going so good, but you know, it says you need to do four hours the next day, and you do it, like, and you're broken when you start it, and then you have intervals the next day, and you do it because it says you have to do it, but you're broken, like, you know, you're not actually moving forward, you're just breaking yourself down, and then, like, the rest period says one day, but maybe you need two, it's just It's, it's quite tough and I see like a lot of the youngsters nowadays is just running like a four week plan and like the plan is a plan and yeah, and you do it.

There's no adjusting. Yeah. Yeah. And if you miss a day, you just crack on with whatever was planned for the next day. It's like, it's, yeah, it's, it's crazy. And, uh, yeah, I mean, it works like some guys, it works for sure. They have success. There's no dramas, but I think for others that it doesn't work. I mean, there's not many options, so I mean, they have to just figure it out on their own and I guess there's not so much guidance going around to, to help those that are wondering.

I think I, I mean, I was guilty of that. I mean, I, when did you, you were training with John Wakefield in your earlier days. Yeah. When did you leave or change from him? It was twenty, twenty? Okay. Yeah, middle of middle, end of 2020. I was training with him as well. Um, and I mean, I'd known him for years and, um, like, I think, obviously, he came from, like, had quite a big background in road and, um, obviously in motocross as well and, and he would give me training plans and I would, like, the downhill, like, and the sort of skills specific training, I would always, like, keep separate to what he gave me.

So, I was always doing way too much because I would do, like, Whatever he gave me. So if he gave me intervals, I would do the intervals and then I'd go do timed downhill runs. Like, but obviously if you do timed downhill runs, you're sprinting as well. So it's like more intervals. Yeah, and so yeah, like and then I'd go ride pump track or whatever and you know So I'd be doing all this other stuff and I was just so cooked.

Like, but I mean it was, it was my halt because, but at the time obviously You know, you, you're young and you're just like, you know, the more I do, the stronger I'm going to get, you know? Um, so it's, I can see how quickly people can, can be in that situation. And then you're kind of also puzzling because you're like, well, I'm doing all this work and I feel like I'm not progressing.

Um, or you just feel like you're so fatigued all the time and you're like, yeah, you're just stuck. And then now actually, when I got injured in 2018, 19, obviously I had a lot of time off. And then when I came back, um, I part ways from John and started doing my own thing and started doing less. And then I realized, like, I was feeling better than I was.

I was doing way less load, but I was feeling better than when I was with him. Um, but it wasn't to do with him, it was just that I was, I realized that I was just doing way, way too much. Too much super training on the side. Yeah, like But yeah, I guess it's always easier in hindsight when you look back, you know.

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's, uh, I mean, I think I was also guilty of it probably at times. It's like, you know, the motivation is so high that, like, you look at the plan and if you have just an ounce of energy, you're going to go out and smash some more. I want this so bad that it's, you know, it doesn't matter what it takes.

Even if it's, you know, you're absolutely broken every day, then, you know, that is what it is. And this is like, yeah, he puts the, you know, recovery right and you're like, nah, I can Get a bit more out of this or Yeah. Go for a motor session afterwards or whatever, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or you, yeah. Save the file that says, you know, you did one hour and then you go and do another hour afterwards.

Or, you know, like, uh, yeah. I mean, I did some, some stupid things, eh, when we were in the younger years and trying to make it on scene. Yeah. Flip. Um, that, I mean, I think that, I think, uh, e-bikes are quite a cool, uh, thing for riding now for, for that as well to. Kind of, because if you do have, if you do want to do some more and you should be taking it easy, also doing like an e bike ride on boost or something like that is a way to still have some fun, but without breaking yourself too much, which back then didn't happen.

I was riding on like a jump bike with a high seat post. Yeah, yeah. I mean, to be fair, it takes discipline, I mean, even on the e bike, you can still rinse yourself and have a hard workout, I mean. E bikes get a bad rap, but I think they, if you want to, you can, you can have a proper ride. Yeah, it's more the downhills.

Like, I can hit 160, 170 odd rate on the downhills. Really? Yeah. I mean, if there's a comma on the line, you know, like, it stays out the window. I stopped using Strava years ago because I just became It just was, it became too much. Like every ride would be like a race day. No, it's actually something, you know, I mean, we're probably drifting like quite off topic, not talking about Strava, but like, it's actually something I use quite a lot.

Oh really? Cause it's, you know, obviously mountain bike and the efforts we do is really power meter dependent. Yeah. And Strava, like it's GPS based. So time doesn't lie. So, like, if you change tires, if you change suspension. Interesting, okay. You change power meters, like, I always go back to Strava and I have key segments, like, within the trail network that I normally ride in, like, cross country laps that I test on.

And then you can back to back, you know, if you do the same 10 minute lap time, but it says you did 50 watts less. You can then re look it and say, either you're efficient, the tire set ups is, the power meter is not correct. Like there's a few ways to do it, but yeah, Strava is quite a useful tool for us.

Wow, that's interesting. And now with the road, like it's, it's more reference points. Like a lot of the hard climbs, obviously you have a KOM point and like, it's realistic of like a road race finish that you would have to go all out to, to try match a time or beat it. So something, um, Doing secretly at the minute.

It's like finding key KOM points like in and around the area. Yeah, that's been Long standing and it's gonna take a few of those off hopefully before before I head off for my road race. Trapping out. Oh, what's what's in three weeks you going? Yeah, Jesus. This is becoming real now. Yeah, now I mean need to test the shape and you know, like if I, if I'm far off then you know It's like kind of then realistically of where I'm gonna be at at the road racing.

It's interesting using, I didn't think that, I thought everyone thought that Strava's like, you know, bit of a, it's just like for your mates, you know, on the weekends. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of guys take it serious there, some bragging rights. Yo, the guys take it serious. Some big rides go on there as well.

Yes, get the comm. I remember back, I had it for about, uh, I don't know, about two years and then I just, it became like, sometimes you just want to go for a ride and, and just have a, like a chill ride and not just always want to, Competitive side always comes out. How, like, you were mentioning it a bit before, but, so, what is your, how, like, how has your training evolved from back in say 2017, 18, when you were under 23?

To now like moving on to, you know, obviously winning this year and moving into road and everything. Yeah, I mean It's quite a good obviously the the coaching systems change as well. Yeah, you know, I went I changed coaches and and and really bought into the Cannondale way and like I mean I'd really give all that credit to to Cannondale and the team could You know, they build the team around the riders and like each and every staff member is invested in doing their part or filling in the holes to help each athlete on the team perform the best they possibly can.

And like their all year round team, it's not just rock up with the World Cup. Oh, yo, we haven't seen you since last season. Like how are you doing? How's it been? Like the team is really invested, like we did Jan Camp, Feb Camp, April Camp, Into the World Cups, And they came here as well, right? Yeah, yeah, they Stellenbosch, I think they're coming again in a few weeks.

Ah, cool. Um, but yeah, like it's really, you know, and then when you start building that kind of relationship, I think the, the trust and confidence really starts to build. And I think, like, with such a strong group of riders as well, it was also really rare and unique, you know, to have me, Simon and Charlie on the, on the team and we.

I mean, all three of us can be on the podium on a good day where everything goes to plan. So, you know, when you're doing intervals and testing and stuff, it's like. Sometimes you have to just, you know, have a moment with yourself as well. And just remind yourself that, you know, if you get smashed, like the guys are the best in the world, you know, not just like youngsters that you're training with.

I mean, they damn good. Yeah. When we all push each other, I mean, the level just goes sky high. I think it's good. Like it seems to be quite popular now also with not just with. Cycling, but also like, I follow motocross quite a lot and they've got a place called the Baiters Factory in the U. S. And, and all the top guys train together and which was kind of back in the day not really a done thing.

Um, because you want to keep your training secret or whatever, but obviously, you know, if you've got someone that's on your level or similar level, then you're going to push each other. Yeah, yeah. And I think the other, the other key to the success over the last four or five years, I would say, is also rest.

Like it was something that I really underrated and I would touch on a little bit earlier, but like, yeah, just really like putting in the work when you need to and then really pulling the handbrake and like doing nothing for a few days afterwards just to kind of absorb it and like kind of build a bit of a step ladder effect, you know, I think.

When you're constantly chasing like the, uh, the training peaks is dangerous at times, you know, and you're chasing that fitness score in the middle and you're just trying to push that thing up and up and up and then you take a rest there and you see it go down and you try to push some more. Yeah. Like it's dangerous, you know, I think that was kind of the approach and mentality I had in the past and then kind of.

Went into the Cannondale way and then just trusted, you know, that need to really invest more than what I was previously, like, and I really trained, like, to a much higher state of fatigue and then I rested, like, double what I would have previously rested and like, just kind of, yeah, just built up and then over the last few years we've progressed, like, that level of fatigue initially, like, it only took three days and I was broken, whereas now it's kind of three week blocks, you know, before I need to rest.

So it's really like I've become resilient and like used to that kind of back to back hard, hard training. But yeah, it's been a long process. It's not just a quick thing. And it's, it's been, I would like to believe quite a sustainable approach to building shape and consistency. Hasn't been a. One year let's go for it make a 50 percent improvement and then you toast it afterwards It's been kind of little nuggets every every six months or so and just constantly moving forward and like this Let's move now to the road It's like the next big step to try keep adding these nuggets on and then sticking to what we know and in the background with the mountain bike is the are you doing the road thing because you is that like where you see Kind of your career going like full time or is it more so to make your mountain biking better?

Yeah, it's like I would like to do both and do a good job at both I think at the minute it's kind of hard to really have a decisive point on where I can see it going like I think I'm gonna need a few races to see realistically where I'm at cuz I you know Also don't really want to like end the career, you know, being a road guy, that's just one, one of the other guys in the peloton that, you know, gives a pool here and there and give some nutrition, you know, like I, I want to make my way forward and like to be one of the team leaders and like win some races, you know, I'm really competitive and like, you know, even if I win a world cup, you know, like I want to win it by more the next one.

Like I'm too bad with that, you know, like. So if I win by 10 seconds, I'm like, I don't know, like super happy. Like in the moment, the next day I'm like, God, I win by 20 seconds. Like, yeah, like just constantly pushing, pushing forward. You want to smoke the guys. Yeah, like it's just, I, I don't know, like I don't settle for, for where I'm at, you know, I always want to push and be, be better.

And like, if I do intervals and stuff and we have like the targets, you know, it's like, it's always, how do I go further up the hill in the same time? You know, it's like. Always what's next, how to do it better, what event can we do next that's bigger than the one we've just done, you know, it's like, yeah, so that's why I think the road thing like at the minute is, is completely new and we're starting from the bottom and I think like I, it's kind of a four year plan in my head that You know, maybe 27, like we can target a grand tour.

I mean, I mean, realistically to go and win is like impossible again. That's how the Gionis and Rem goes. Um, but I think to do a good job and go for like top 10 and stuff is maybe something that might be of interest, but I think for sure we're going to take it. over the next few seasons and then make a decision on how we, how we attack this road thing to, to get the most out of me.

Cause I also don't know if I'm a grand tour rider, like I could be a classics one day guy. Like at the minute my profile is like so bang on in the middle and could go either direction. So just got to take it race by race. I think that's something that a lot of Athletes and also, you know, people in business, you know, people that are driven to get somewhere, um, and achieve a goal.

It's hard to switch that off. So, you know, you, it's because I don't know, I felt like there's this notion of what makes people happy. And you think, okay, cool. I want to be, I don't know how you can maybe speak to this afterwards. Like, okay, cool. I want to be world champ. Now you are world champ and like now you think like when you're when you're a kid you think off I'll be world champ like I'm gonna be happy like I'm gonna be It's going to be everything I ever dreamed of, you know, but then you get there and I could imagine then you're like, well, this is cool, but like now I want to win it again, you know, or I want to move on to the next thing or, you know, so it's, it's kind of like, it doesn't, which is in a way it's sad because I think as humans, we always like pushing, we want to push for more, but at the same time, it's like, it's such an awesome achievement and it's such a, you know, But that's, yeah, I guess what, what keeps people, uh, sort of like people like yourself driving, reach bigger, better things, you know?

Yeah, for sure. I think it's like, uh, a dangerous place to be, as you said. Like, you know, once you achieve it and then kind of then sit and wonder, like, what's next? All the pressure also gets to, you know, that you're like, you now are a world champ, world cup overall winner. Like, you know, you now, you need to, you just expect it to win everything, like going forwards.

Like that also was in the back of my head. It was like, that could be kind of, you know, if I, you know, set myself up for that, you know, that people are just going to think that's what expected, but you know, kind of still human in the end of the day and like performance is not guaranteed. And like for sure the experience is there and my drive to, to win is still there, but.

I think, like, that's why I think the timing of this road thing was just absolutely perfect, you know, to, to be an absolute high Olympic medal, win the world champs, win the world cup overall, like, and then now to shift focus and put mountain bike, like kind of on a back foot in a way, like just to focus on something else for the first five months of the year and then shift back to, to mountain bike for the last half.

But yeah, just to, to change it up a bit, I think just to. Mentally and physically just prepare in a different way because I think, you know, if I kind of had to say that what I did this year was Absolutely everything right and I have to copy and paste that for the next five years would be super dangerous I think now that you have to get out the comfort zone to to keep improving and to stay at the front I think that everyone is so hungry for that if you're not making these risky moves in a way and challenging yourself, you're just not going to stay at the front.

So I think that's why it's like, yeah, uh, uh, tough in the way that obviously I had the best season of my, of my career. And you think, you know, why, why would I want to change? But I just think that, you know, I want to do a good job, stay consistent, stay at the front and achieve something bigger in four years time.

And like, Might come with a bit of a risk of having a so so season from being spread too thin. Yeah. But yeah, hopefully we manage it and do a good job and use the knowledge we've built up over the last few years to not get it wrong. But yeah, it's going to be a massive challenge. You, you obviously mentioned a few, a few big highlights there.

Uh, what was, I mean, you obviously, you won 23, uh, under 23 world champs and, and then you won elite worlds as your overall, almost, almost Olympic gold as well. Um, what was the, yeah, if you could pick one or what was the most special moment for you? I would say the world championships, uh, Men on Dora. Like, for me, Olympics is super cool and it's like more the whole country gets behind you and like, I think maybe it's easier to watch or easier for them to follow.

I'm not sure, but Olympics always has like a special hype to it. And if you perform there, like it seems to go a lot further for some reason, but like, obviously within the cycling community, world championships goes a lot further than everyone knows about world championships. Um, but for me, the 38 to 40 riders on the start line.

So it's always in the back of my head. Like, you know, if you perform there, it's cool, but it's still, it's like really good guys that. Could have, or should have been there. So for sure it counts. I mean, it's the best of the best. Fits the criteria and qualifies to go, but it's not everyone. Whereas Worlds, like 95 percent of the guys that could be there are there.

And like, if you win there, there's no excuses. Like it was a full, full on World Cup style event, you know, massive start. You obviously, it's also a bit, a bit more traditional in a way that everyone also has factory support. It's not Federation support. So like, yeah, I just think the excuses are a lot less and it's like a proper, proper one to win.

I think it's probably one of the hardest races to win, to be honest. It's interesting that the, the world is still put on a higher pedestal than the, I mean, obviously we don't, in Downer, you don't have the Olympics, so. Yeah. But yeah, I guess it's, the only thing is obviously that it comes around every year.

Which the Olympics doesn't, but as you say, like, I didn't realize that there were so many less guys that were racing Olympics. Yeah. Yeah. Another thing you also forgot is the achievement in 2019. It's a test to see how well you've been following me. It's another world title I got. Monster N Worlds in 2019.

I wasn't there. Yeah, but you only followed Team South Africa, right? Yeah. What, what was it? Um, Bye. It was the first ever event at a world championships. Was it the, the e bike? Yes, now I remember. Never forget. I was like, what the hell? Like, what have I missed here? Flippin hell. Yeah, that was, but you only did it once, right?

Yeah, yeah. The first ever on a dime line. I mean, the guys now trained for it specifically and stuff. It's too hard to win now. I took the opportunity while it was there. Now, I mean, it's wild now. I mean, I've watched it the last few years. I mean, the guys are savage, yeah. Because it's like power to weight as well.

Yeah. You see the guys at the front now, and they're like 50 kilos. I mean, it's Yeah. No, that's hectic. I think people, like, e bikes can have a bit of a, you know, people sort of, like, roll their eyes at e bikes, but if you do it properly, like, e bikes are proper, you know, they give you a, they're still flippin hard, and like, it's a, people forget as well, it's a big bike, like, It's the highest average heart rate per hour that I ever had in a race.

Really? It was 182 average for that race. I mean I was absolutely dying 'cause I had no recovery on the Daniel 'cause the bike's so heavy. and you obviously all the S is where your time is. 'cause on the ups and flats, like obviously you have to have yeah shape to keep the bike on the limiter, but like your real gains is on the down, on the down.

So like. You know, you've ruined yourself just to keep that thing on the limiter on the uphills. Then you go down there and then you're fighting for every second down. I've been out. And then there you are. I mean, the whole world championships for the mountain bike. We've ridden off after that event. I mean, I thought I'd be alright to do that and recover.

But I mean, I was so broken. I mean, it was crazy. It took like three, four days to come around. But then I tried to Yeah, but I mean, you won the first ever E Bike World Champs, so I mean, like, I think you deserve the inter break, eh? Yeah. I don't know, for sure, for sure, yeah. And I had a rough year as well, it was kind of like my saving grace of the year.

Yeah, man. Uh, dude, 180, 182 heart rate average for how long was it, an hour and a half? No, it was like an hour, just over an hour. Cause I was, they thought the battery wasn't gonna make it, you know, so they got more than an hour. Dude, I like, is, okay, honest question now, because for me, looking at when you guys race, I'm like, doesn't look like fun.

Like, when you are at 180 heart rate for that long, like, is it, is it fun, the actual racing part? Yeah, it's like a game of chess. And like, the thing is that we get so conditioned for that effort that when you're riding at like 178, that's like, you know, the 80 percent or Yeah, like 75, 80 percent of what you're capable of.

So you're just riding along like at a, you know, a comfortable, not comfortable, but like, you know, it's sustainable. It's not like you are absolutely max, you know? So you feel You save your maximum effort for key moments and do it in little key parts that kind of make and break the race. But majority of the race, you're like in control the whole way around.

And then, like, while you're in control, I mean, obviously, you're still flying around the course and you have to try and build the race together. I mean, that's what I do anyways. You try to build the race and position yourself where you are, and then you have to plan strategically, you know, when you're gonna get your fueling on, when you're doing your cooling, when you're gonna try and make or break the race, who's coming from the back of the race now, forward, that could be a problem, who's pushing wind on the front, are you recovering on the downhill?

Are your lines good? Because I mean, you could also be, you could be on a bad line the whole race and not even know it. Yeah. So I mean, that's where the team around us is actually important. So we have like four staff members on course that are giving us feedback on all this. It's every, what, three, four minutes or so, someone is saying something.

Someone's moving up or your line choice on rock garden should shift to B or whatever it is. But yeah, there's a lot, a lot that goes on while you're riding at the 80 percent kind of. Comfort zone until, until the race happens, but when the race happens, I mean, it's, yeah, I guess kind of for me, like, it's also working towards when the race does happen, that you can follow the move and still be in control, but that's like the best feeling in the world, like for me personally, I think.

If you're riding along at like 80 percent and then the race happens and then you go completely cross eyed when you follow and then you're like, you're just dying, you can't breathe, you can't descend, you can't feel your arms, like, I mean, then it's horrible and for sure I've been there plenty of times and you're just, you know, hoping and praying that it slows down so that you can have a chance to stay in.

Um, and Pitcock's done that a few times to most of us. Now when he comes through and does his Pac Man thing, you know, fighting from the back and then, You know, you think he's not going to turn up and then he does and then he hits you straight away when, when everyone is on the hook and then you hang on as long as you can and boof off the back.

I mean, then, then it sucks, you know, kind of think like you need to, you need to go out and do some more. Um, but yeah, for sure. When you're in control and you're in the driver's seat and you're the one putting the camera down and everyone is feeling that way. That they are suffering to follow. You're like, almost like teasing them, it's like, come on guys.

Yeah. No, it's honestly, it's the dream, you know, like, I mean, the, the way I, I rode on like Monsterland for the final round, like that one and Nege is like the most control I've ever had at a, at a bike race, you know, like from, from the first minute, you know, I, I'm able to dictate and decide how the race is going to unfold and make it harder when I want to and make it easy when I, you know, when I feel like it.

Yeah, it's like a completely different type of race and it's something like I honestly would work another four years for to have that feeling in my brain, like, it's just, yeah, unreal to, to be cruising along and you're like going and you're pushing, but you're not thinking like you're going max and you look behind and it's just like no one, like no one has followed you.

Like it's crazy. Yeah. It's something I would, I, yeah. It's crazy actually that, that is, with how many good guys there are, that it's, it's crazy that you or someone else, you know, in that time period is able to get to that point where they, you know, you can be so much better on that day than the rest of the field when everyone is putting in so much, you know, there's so many talented guys, it's, I mean, over my whole career, I can probably count on one hand, like how many times I've had them.

So, I mean, yeah. You really have to work your ass off for it and it doesn't happen often, but there is situations where, you know, you get the right bike set up, the right type of course that suits you and right timing of training and altitude and prep and whatnot. I mean, there's a lot involved that just, if it lines up, it's just, yeah, you'll just be leaps and bounds ahead of the rest.

I think you mentioned it, but we touched on it earlier, um, with the now being. Being you're the guy now, um, and now I'm feeling this pressure to, you know, now everyone's chasing you kind of thing. Um, and now there's pressure to, that you expected to win, you know, every race. Um, I think, I remember I heard an interview with Greg years ago, and he was, when he was, um, number one, and he was saying like, that you always need to kind of reinvent yourself every year.

Like, even if, You were the best guy like you need to like take stock and re evaluate everything and then try new stuff Which is as you said it is also it's a risk because you think that from the outside I think people are not involved. It's quite easy to think. Oh, well you won So just do what you did again, like just do the same training like it worked So but obviously everyone is trying to get better But at the same time when you make those changes, you, it might not be the right change, like you obviously hope that it is and, but things can happen, you know, which is always a bit of a risk when you've got a winning formula, you know.

I don't know. I think it's like shuffling the season around. It's like an easy, easy way to distract yourself from that approach. Cause I think, you know, if you run the same plan, like the risk comes in that you. Have specific targets that you know, you need to reach or be on track, like to repeat the same plan again.

And I think like for motivation and stuff, like it's, it's not fresh, you know, you're trying to copy and paste the plan and you, you know, the drill and you know, what you need to do it's like with, if you reshuffle a little bit and you put races maybe a bit earlier in the year and a bit later that then you kind of.

Go up and down at a different wave length than what you would have done if you copied and pasted, but this, the, the work being done is still similar. It's just done in different times. Yeah. So like, obviously that comes with a risk of like. Dialing in and doing the final cherry on top work, like still to deliver you in the shape you want to be, but yeah, I don't know.

Like I think just mixing it, cause I mean, I haven't done any year the same over the last few years. So it's, it's always finding like different ways of just shuffling it around. Like Andorra this year, for example, like I was. I was in Andorra a lot more, but then I was also going up and down a lot more, like the last few years I was just staying up high, like, the whole time, but not for as long.

So it's just like, you know, changing locations, changing altitudes. Like it's all fresh stimulus, different environments, like still getting similar work done. And like the training is. Almost the same in a way, but like, it's just a different, different style of, of executing it and that keeps it fresh and like, for me, motivation and like hunger to achieve more is just always there.

I think when you stick to the comfort zone, as we spoke earlier, like it's hard to, to make change. And you mentioned, how much time do you spend in Andorra now? Five to six months, I'd say, yeah. Or like, I stay five to six months, but obviously I'll go up and down and travel for the races and stuff in between.

And like, obviously that's at altitude. How, how much impact does altitude training have on your, on your form going into the season? It's not really, you don't really use it for gaining form. It's more for climatizing to the races we're doing. Because a lot of the races we're doing now is at altitude. Yeah.

Like, I think that's been a big shift in my opinion in the last few years, is that there's so many altitude races now that they're throwing in at us that if you're not used to altitude and delivering at altitude, then when you rock up from sea level, like you, I, I struggle anyway. It's quite hard. Yeah. So I think being based, uh, like, Also, as a South African, it's, you get 90 days within Andorra, that doesn't count for your Schengen days.

Yes. So that was like the main reason as well, that like I wanted to stay in Europe and not do the backwards and forwards travel to try to stay healthy, but Yeah, there's not many options as a South African to, to stay in Europe unless you have fancy visas or residencies or whatnot, which, which I, I don't have and still don't have.

I'm busy working on that at the minute, but yeah, so that was, that was the main reason and like the conditions is good and it's in the mountains and like, yeah, obviously the altitude. Does play a bit of a, yeah, it does, it does have quite an effect for how you train and prepare, can really kill yourself quite quickly, like, it's hard, I mean, you know, when you do heavy weeks at altitude, you don't recover the same, yeah, that's always like a factor that you have to slow down the training almost, so you have to go in in really good shape and then allow yourself to lose fitness basically for a few weeks while you adjust and then you gain it back in, uh, in the last part of the altitude block.

So it's, yeah, kind of like, with all lessons I learned, I mean, everyone is different. I think that's the thing, you know, is that like, the way I do altitude is completely different to the way Charlie does. Charlie doesn't, altitude really doesn't affect him much. I mean, he can go in there on day one, you know, take it a bit easy and then he smashes it and he's fine.

He recovers the same way. Whereas I, I really, I get proper tired quickly, but yeah, it's been a good base for me, I'd say the cool thing is I can get on the trials motorbike there. I think Tony bow as a bold trials for the whole of Andorra. I mean, yeah, it's, uh, I'm not sure if it's a hotspot. They're not sure if it's like completely legal, but like you ride them everywhere.

Like. On the roads, like, you know, in the bike parks, when it's out of season, in the mountains, like, whatever you see and you want to try, jump or go up, like, you just go for it and no one says anything, so. Yeah, it's really cool and it's been like a key part of the training as well, because I think, I think we spoke when you got here, and I was just saying that, you know, like, I have spent quite a bit of time on the road bike the last two years, and for sure I do mountain bike key sessions, but not as much mountain biking as well, probably.

Most people think I do. I kind of do the trials and actual enduro motorbike here in South Africa and obviously the trials in Andorra. Uh, in and around the training for the technical, for like, obviously the technical training and just the, the strength and conditioning. I mean, you know that those big bikes, I mean, they absolutely have me.

And I think it has to have the speed as well. So when you're descending and climbing and stuff, it's for me, for me almost double speed of what I would be on a, on a XC bike. Yeah. Crazy, I think, I know that's a big thing that people use, like the downhill guys, a lot of the downhill guys use, use enduro bikes and motocross bikes, but I Didn't expect so many of the cross country guys to be using them.

Well, I'm kind of Maybe you're the pioneer. Yeah, one of the few. I think me and Andriy Frishnekt. Yeah. And I got Simon, my teammate Simon Andreasson on the trials bike for a bit. People should be watching what you're doing. He smashed himself a few times. So like, it comes with risk, you know. It's a process.

You can't just jump on the motos and And how, what's that like with the teams and stuff? Like, with riding motos and stuff. I mean, are they Are they ever sort of concerned, you know, from an injury point of view? Yeah, like, I mean, I, I'm at that point now where I've been doing it for so long that it's like kind of just a standard, a part of my, my training.

And I think, like, given I've been doing it for the last six, seven years, like every single week, it's, you know, and like touch wood, like I haven't been injured from it. Like, it's hard for the teams to really have much to, to complain about. And obviously, like, it has so much benefit for the mountain bike that has just been a given that it's.

Yeah, a part of my, my standard routines and it's, yeah, something I really enjoy. I think it's like, it's quite a targeted thing as well. Because it's, you know, like as you can, you've probably heard already, like I'm quite competitive or like everything I do. So, you know, like even the moto and the trials and stuff, you know, like the climbs I didn't make it up before, or like the stuff I tried to hop up the previous time and didn't make it.

Like I go back and like try it again and I'll keep doing it like kind of every day until eventually I make it or learn how to do it. So it's like, it's quite cool that it's like, I have the, I have like a gym target, you know, where you try to optimize yourself in the gym and make improvements there. I have goals on the road bike where I want to try to be faster and do stuff there.

I have goals on the mountain bike and then goals on the moto as well. So it's like my whole week, you know, split into kind of like four things I'm chasing. So it kind of, my energy and focus is kind of like constantly refreshed and targeted in different ways. It's not just. one stimulus that I'm just running like day in and day out.

So I've heard that quite a few times that it actually is beneficial to have a another sort of an outside target or goal. And not just, you know, if you focus as an athlete or for anything in life, if you just got one thing, because if, if that thing doesn't work the way that you want or plan, then you kind of feel a bit lost because you're like, well, that was.

The only thing that I was interested in, or that I was focused on and not at. I didn't win the race so I didn't, you know, perform the way I wanted to and now you feel like a bit down because you're like, flip, well, I put all, all my effort into that and, you know, it didn't turn out. Um, you were, you also mentioned like with the training side, like, and how, like reinventing yourself and stuff.

What do you think about someone like Nino? Like, how do you think, or what do you think's been sort of the way that he's been able to, to stay at the top, like, and obviously now he's, you know, you've overtaken him, but. You know, he's been at the top level for so long, um, which not many guys have been able to do.

Yeah, and he still won the World Cup this year, and everyone was keeping their eyes on him, like the whole year round, Olympics, Worlds, like, he's always mentioned. Um, I think, like, I, he keeps, I think, his cards quite close to his chest, and he really reveals everything, but, like, from inside the kind of World Cup community and what I've been able to see, like, I think he's just world class at actually wrestling.

And like having a resting, yeah, resting and having like a balanced life. I think that he really is targeted for World Cups because you don't see him doing many races outside of World Cups. So, you know, yeah, he's really targeted that he has those dates on his calendar and like those are the events that he's gonna really go for it and most of the time win or be damn close to it.

But you know, when the season is done, like I, I mean, I could be wrong, but it looks like it takes maybe a month or two months off, you know, completely. Like he's not shy of resting, going on holiday, doing like completely different stuff. And I think that that's given him the longevity to run his career for so long that he's really He has that balance that he's able to, you know, live his life, enjoy, and then he buckles down and commits for those few months that he really needs to.

And then when it's done, like handbrake up, switch off party mode and like he's, he's out, you know, he's, he's living his life again. I think that that's really like the only way to sustain is to have that balance. Cause I think if like, you're just stuck in that rut of like doing the same thing day and day out and you go on off season and then you're still kind of like itching to ride, you know, like on day one, day two already, like, you know, there's like, It's not a bad thing, like, I suppose when you're young, like, I was like that, but you know, like, I think to have that balance and actually enjoy doing something else is also really beneficial.

It's interesting because, I mean, the other, in the downhill side, obviously, you said Greg Minard was such an inspiration to you as well. And he just retired also this year at 42 or 43 now, which is just insane. And he also had that approach, it seemed, that when the season was done, like, you would chill for.

I'm not sure exactly how long, but definitely a month or a month or two and I think, yeah, I think as a young, when you're young, you don't understand that because it's like you're so motivated and so hungry and you just like want to go, go, go, go, go. But I think, yeah, obviously that drains you, I think mentally more than anything.

Um, and if you don't have that time off, then you have to like revitalize you and get your motivation and everything. Back then. Yeah, it'll shorten your career a lot. At least it seems that way. I think it's just yeah I balance just to enjoy what you do and like to keep that like enjoyment and Motivation there.

I think as soon as you kill that motivation and enjoyment like it's really hard to continue in a good way I think you kind of then will have to really stop reset and find yourself again to make Improvements and keep moving forward. I think that's just the thing. It's like You know, if you get stagnant and you don't just like, just start ticking boxes, like, you know, just to get by it, like you're still going to stay where you are and you, you could be exceptional, but you'll just stay there and you're not going to improve.

No one is staying still, like the, and Daniel as well, you see it, I mean, like the guys are just going faster and faster, like with, with everything, every sport and. Yeah. Like everyone just wants to make it to the front. So like, yeah, I think nowadays with science and research and knowledge, like it's so much stuff circulating that people are exposed to a lot more ideas and things to try and getting suggested on things they did wrong.

Like it's quite easy with, I mean, like now we're wearing like smartwatches and stuff, you know, like, like there's so many metrics that you can have, like in a day that actually tells you like. What's going on and like how you can improve to keep moving forward. Like, yeah, it's just, I think it's evolved a lot.

Cause I mean, you know, when I was junior and youth and stuff, I mean, hard rate monitors and like car meters was like really, like really used. I mean, everyone saw the things and said, Hey crap, you know, the readings are so far out and not reliable. And I'll just use heart rate. And I remember having like intervals and you have to average like 180 heart rate for four minutes.

And like you do the first one and you are sprinting all out because I'm in 180 on you on the first one when you fresh like Yeah, I mean you have to like pass out for for that kind of average heart rate And then like you do the second one and you're going like half speed for the same heart rate Yeah, like okay our sessions done.

You just do like just get progressively slower and slower like yeah I mean things that evolved a lot, but I mean, yeah It is, uh, it is difficult nowadays and I think you see it with the youngsters as well, like especially on the roadside, like there's so many youngsters now that are like 17, 18 that are signed by world tour teams for massive contracts because they have all the data and stuff and they can see VO2 max and power data and whatever and they're using that to forecast and predict where they're going to be in the future like it's Yeah, it's evolving and kind of like, I mean, I'm 28 turning 29 this year, but like kind of old in a way it's like you're almost 30 sneaking in for us.

Oh, like, so what do you, what's your, what are the most, I mean, you obviously use heart rate monitor, power meter. What else do you use? Like, do you use anything to track sleep and HRV and sort of all that stuff as well? Yeah, so I sleep with a watch on most nights, um, just to do that. And then actually core temperature is another sensor.

Core temperature? Yeah, and it's like a sensor you clip on the heart rate belt. Okay. And it kind of gives your, your body temperature. And you can use that as well as another metric for Like if you're doing heel repeats, you can see how, how heat adapted you are. Because like core temperature, when you, when you're in really, really good shape, like core temperature for our type of sport, like obviously being endurance.

Like heat and core temp is one of the biggest, like biggest limiting factors. Cause if you hit 39 degrees core temperature, like basically your body shuts down and goes into like protection mode because like. You're overheating, your brain and like, heart and everything needs to protect itself so the blood doesn't go to the legs, doesn't go to the arms, like, and you surprisingly will hit 39 degrees quite easy in race conditions if you're not aware of the feeling or if your heat, like, heat adaption is not great.

So what do you do then to To sort of solve the problem. Yeah. It's like cool down. It's like sustained blocks at like actually below 39 degrees. So you kind of expose yourself to sub max heat and then you kind of keep it there. So your body learns to sweat more and cool down because the more you sweat, like the more your body is.

Trying to cool down and stay within the, the 38 degree quarter. Cause like 38 is kind of standard, uh, operating temperature for, for most people. So it's kind of like, yeah, just, just balancing to try to keep that. I mean some guys go really extreme. Heatsuits and beanies and all sorts and they ride the turbo trainer like full gas and lose like five Five liters of sweat, you know to to heat adapt which I mean that also works But like for me, it's too hard like mentally to to suffer like that But yeah, I think it's something you'll probably see more and more of in future I think people really are starting to look into heat adaption now.

It's something I never even thought was the thing like It's actually insane like how, you know, how scientific it is now. Like, back in the day it was just like, go train, come home, you know, and like, Oh, today I felt tired, or today I didn't have a lot of gas, or today I felt good. But like, yeah, it's something like that.

I didn't even know that existed. Yeah, I mean you see like with your heart rate, you know, like if you are chilling now, you know, like, Before, for example, like, let's say you were going to do a 5k run now, like after you take your heart rate now, you know, resting when your core temperature is at 36. 5, call it resting core temp and you go do a run and then you sit here afterwards for 10 minutes.

Like your heart rate is going to be like 100 or so. It's not going to be at 60 or 70, whatever it was before. Like your body is running hot and like it takes probably a good hour before the core temp kind of like. Starts to reset unless you obviously shower or do like other ways to like cool yourself down.

But if you just run and stop like your body's hot and like your heart rate is gonna tell you that. But now you just get this little thing that plugs on to the heart rate strap and gives you all that data like live. Just to confirm exactly what's going on. And would you measure that only post ride or you also measure before?

No, kind of like do it in, in training. Or during? Yeah, during, during training. Like I don't use it in races cause like If you're racing with all this data and stuff, like it's chaos, like you can't, you can't trust that, that stuff. I mean, you can trust it, but like, you can't use it. If you're racing with body temp in the back of your head and stuff, you're going to hold back and race strange.

Like, really, you still need to race your bike at the end of the day, but it's just a tool to help you prepare better, um, for those kind of things. I mean. We don't race so many races in crazy heat, but like, I suppose Brazil is a really, really good example, it's high heat, high humidity, like, if you haven't done heat prep for those rounds specifically, like, you're going to take shots, like, guaranteed.

And, like, what about, you know, some other stuff, you know, things like ice baths, uh, red light, I don't know, do you use anything else, uh, sort of, which were, I don't know, biohacks or? Things like that, or not really. No, I haven't been, I've tried all of those things, but not, uh, not a fan. Uh huh. I hate the cold.

I mean, South African, I think, I don't know. I mean, I, I can't do it. I mean, as far as you, I mean, you live in Germany and stuff, so I mean, you're both different, but yeah, I mean, you put me in cold water. I mean, I freeze, I like, I stiffen up and cramp my torso, so like. Really? I mean, I live summer to summer. I mean, I stay here in South Africa until Oh, as long as I can, like March, April, maybe May if I can, and then I'll go Andorra, and then it's summer already, or starting to go to summer, so it's kind of summer to summer.

So, I mean, yeah, I really, I don't do so many days in the, in the cold. And the, I mean, obviously with the heat, like, I noticed that now, because I've been in Germany until a few days ago, and it was, when I left it was minus five, and I arrived here, and it was twenty eight or thirty or whatever it was, and, you know, the last couple of days we went for a ride, and it was, It was quite hard.

Um, just, I, I, I don't know if that, cause I've been, I've been still doing some rides and stuff there and running and stuff, but just the, the temperature change makes a, I find it makes a massive difference. Like, and I'm, I grew up here, so I should be used to the, the heat, but yeah, I guess when you've been over there for a while, it's, um, it takes, it takes a toll.

Yeah. Yeah. I think like the, the interesting thing. That kind of was brought up recently, um, by some guys I was riding with is if you stay summer to summer, there's like a risk of becoming like not efficient in the heat because your body learns to kind of hide and hack to like. Get by in the heat, I don't know like if that makes sense, but like when it was mentioned to me It kind of made sense like if you are, you know Staying in Europe and you do that minus five degrees and stuff like you lose all heat adaption So like when you get exposed to the heat your body gets like a shock and then it starts to heat adapt Yeah, it's straight away because it has to because like it's such a big difference But like if you constantly stay in the heat like your body doesn't really heat adapt Like you just stay at like a plateau that's like average You're not used to high, high heat because you like, the body doesn't think it needs to adapt because it kind of like, it's not really getting stimulated in the same way, which like, I kind of can agree.

Cause at times I've like complained in races that I've, I've just been too hot and I've overheated, which like considering my lifestyle of living summer to summer, like it makes no sense. And then like, yeah, when I was brought up the other day, that's a guy said like. It's the first time he's tried it, like, he's gone full winter embrace it, did like a few turbos, like, yeah, froze his ass off, got used to being cold, and then he went to the, like, the sun again.

He said he absolutely died for the first week, but then, like All of a sudden his heat adaption was like, insanely good. But it makes sense because they always say, I mean, your body is very smart and efficient. And so whether it's a diet that people like, lower their calories, like after a while your resting metabolic rate actually reduces because your body gets used to it.

It's like, okay, well there's less food coming in so we've got to get more efficient with how much energy we're burning. And then you plateau and you stop losing weight, you know, so this is the same thing. And whether you're exposed to cold or heat also makes sense because after a while your body adapts, uh, which is just natural.

So if you're changing all the time. Well, not all the time, but on a, you know, regularly sort of throughout the year, then it, it would make sense that the body would be more, then more efficient, but also better at, at, it would get kind of lazy maybe if it, if it wasn't making those changes. Yeah. And it's like, it's actually the riders that are Southern hemisphere based, you know, kind of South America, Africa, Australia, like in all the lower guys.

Like, we are the ones that kind of have to really think about these things and figure out a way to overcome and be efficient because, I mean, obviously the majority that's in Europe or North America and whatnot, like, I mean, they don't have that problem because, I mean, they go through winter and they go through summer, like, you know, they have the change of season.

It's us that's dangerous. Like, you know, I've always had this theory as well, especially like, I mean, when I was chatting about, um, Carl, the previous podcast and Cape Epic and stuff. And like, you see it with our South African boys, like. It's so quick and easy to get in shape here because we have such good weather.

So majority of the guys, you know, November, December, I mean, they're training like mad guys and, you know, February, March, they're in absolute peak shape. But then like what comes after that, like then they transition to Europe season and they're cooked because like, you know, being Southern Hemisphere, it's so easy to get in shape.

Like a lot faster than what everyone else is because I mean majority of Europe's all on turbo trainers and in the cold So I mean they're not training at the same same level. So it's yeah challenges. Not easy being South African

Where was the last year that you did the epic actually? I've only done one. You only did it once? Yeah. Yeah with Matt. And with Matt BS And that was never something that, was it purely a fact of you felt like it was going to negatively affect you from, from the XT season, or was it not your cup of tea?

Like it was also tough because obviously we had the COVID period as well, which kind of derailed it. I was supposed to do, I think that Cape Epic of 2020 was October. Um, is it 21? Yeah. Yeah, 2020, 2021. I remember it was shifted. It was like a strange, I think it was end of year. I mean, me and Simon were lined up, we were supposed to, to go for it, but then his appendix went just before, so it kind of derailed our chance there, and then it was already, um, Olympic talks in focus, and we just said, like, look, we're not at the front of World Cup, so, like, it makes no sense to derail the plan and try to target something so outside of the scope of where we want to achieve, so we just said, like, we're not doing it for the next few years, we focus on, on World Cups, and I think, like, Yeah, basically if I didn't go the road, I probably would have done Cape Epic this year and then done World Cups afterwards But chose to rather dive into a completely new world instead of instead of trying the Epic again What's what do you I mean you have done it obviously you haven't focused on it too much But what do you think is more challenging like training wise and race wise?

Doing a cross country World Cup or or race in the Epic. Yeah, they're different I think like, you know, obviously being a team race at the EPIC is always a challenge. You know, cause it's the, the chances of both riders lining up and having a perfect eight days, I reckon must be like 20%. Yeah. You know, it's really low.

I think there's always going to be one guy that has a tough time or one guy that makes a costly mistake. Like it's just, you know, the odds are, you know, it's double. So like it's two guys. And I think that's like the biggest challenge with, uh. The Cape Epic. And also it's finding that balance because, you know, you have a bad day, like, and the partner is destroying you.

Like it's, yeah, it's just, it's, it's tough. Like it's a completely different type of racing. And it's also, it's really targeted, you know, it only comes once a year. So you have like the. A few months to prepare for it and you really go for it, like it's the last race of the season. Whereas the World Cup, like, you have quite a few shots at it.

So I mean, for sure you, you go for it at the races because you want to do a good job. But there's kind of, there is another World Cup, like, in a few weeks time. So you kind of have to have a more long game plan with World Cups. Because Cape Epic is like one shot and like, if you get it wrong, it's done. I mean, it can end on day one already.

I mean, you, one of you guys blow up of the partnership and you lose 20 minutes. So I mean, it's like. Nowadays, I mean, that's it. It's done. Yeah. I mean, the gaps are so tight and the level is so high in that race that it's done. Yeah. I mean, that's just obviously my, uh, couch comments. Yeah. I mean, I've only done one, but yeah, it's, it's really looks like it's evolved a lot.

I'm actually interested to hear, what sort of volume are you doing training wise? Okay, obviously it's now maybe changed for the road stuff, but like, volume wise, what are you doing for XC racing versus what you do for the Epic? Because I know when I spoke to Carl, He was saying that he was doing like 35 to 40 hour weeks.

Um, I don't know if that's a lot for me. It sounds insane, but obviously I'm from downhill, but that's, that's a lot. But, but he, I was like, what? Like, yeah. And he's like, yeah. And he showed me, he's got like a little, uh, you know, a little book like where he's written, he wrote down. It was very like, there was no technology back in the day.

Yeah. So it was like, he wrote down like every session and he would, he, and he wrote there every day and he would like race. So it would be like 200Ks, 250Ks, 200Ks, 300Ks, 220Ks. And then in between it would be like race here. So like there would be races you'd do and then you'd carry on riding afterwards and it would be like.

Back to back to back to back. It's just looking at like, that's insane. Yeah. Uh, I think the, the tough part with Epic is it's evolved as well. So much like the cross country guys are really going for it now. And then like, you know, Carl's a typical marathon guy and like, they use volume to prepare to, to get in shape.

Yeah. And for sure they come around, like in the last part of the race, like when it's hard and like Carl Platt we're talking about. Yeah. Just in case. But like, yeah, you know, when everyone's fatigued and stuff, like they come like steam trains at the end, you know what I mean? I saw it in 19, it was crazy.

Like in the beginning when it's the XC guys really sprinting and going for it, like they really suffer. But once we start slowing down, then they only get warmed up and then they rinse you like properly. But yeah, I think like, it's different, different types of training. And I think the Cape Epic is lending itself nowadays more towards the XC guys.

It's like a lot of single track, really punchy. The stages are getting shorter, more explosive. So I think that those marathon guys that are used to the big hours are not really benefiting the same way they used to anymore. I think, you know, when the stages were five hours long or so, I mean, that was perfect for them because it's like, really, you have to have that endurance and efficiency and it's day in and day out, as you know, it's not just one day.

So, like, if you're used to those kind of hours, you're able to back it up every single day of the, of the epic. Then the XC guys, obviously, are really intense training. So, you're used to Going for it and splitting the race all the time. So I think for me, that's why I enjoy watching it, is it's like seeing the two different types of styles of riders come together and then like the end result at the end is not guaranteed, because like, you know, the guys that don't do that kind of volume, you know, they don't have the, the same legs at the end of the eight days as what the guys that do the volume do.

So it's like the long game within the, the week of racing. Um, but yeah, for me, I mean, I, I'm on, what was this year, the cross country focus season was probably 15 to 18 hours. Oh, wow. Of training. Okay, it's less than I thought, actually. But the intensity is super high. Yeah. So, like, it would be, I don't know if you know TSS at all, but like, it would be over a thousand TSS most weeks, which, like, I could do a 35 hour a week and come out with a thousand TSS as well.

So like it depends how you want to get that stimulus in and like, Maybe, what, maybe you could explain like more, like, I don't know the ins and outs of it. Maybe you could explain a little bit more to the For the average listener who might not know what it is. Yeah, so like the training, it's like TSS is your training stress score.

So it's like a comparison for like your threshold to effort for the hours. If that makes sense. So those three comes together and gives you the score. Okay. So if you ride one hour at 380 watts, call it, and that's your threshold power, you will have a hundred score at the end of that hour. Yeah. But if you ride a 200 watts for that hour, your score will be in percentage of the 380.

Yes. So then it will be like 40 TSA for that hour. So like my training is more like the upper end of where you're targeting like crazy power and you'll do like, 200, 300 TSS, but in like three hours first, if I had to ride 200 watts, like for a five hour ride, I'd probably be like 160 TSS. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It makes sense.

So like, yeah, it's certain times different prep, like, yeah, I mean, you get it, you still get in shape either way. I mean, obviously it's, it's been, it's been proven. It's just a matter of what you do afterwards, I guess, which influences how we prepare. I mean, obviously. Being cross country specialists, we're going to always target the intensity approach.

Because obviously we have a cross country season afterwards, whereas for the marathon guys, you know, I think it's a Probably a bit more pleasant way of getting in shape than smashing yourself day in and day out. Yeah, I'll leave that to you guys It's fine And and what about something like diet like, you know, because I mean to to sustain the volume and the intensity like you must like must have to eat an incredible amount of food Uh, and also, uh, yeah, I can imagine all sorts of other things, supplements and things like that as well.

So, have you placed, I mean, how much emphasis is placed on diet and, and is it more, yeah, do you do anything like fasted rides or anything like that? Or, yeah, maybe you can walk us through that. I think I, I'm one of the lucky ones. I would say that I don't really need to focus too much on, on diet. Like, I'm able to get to race weight and maintain race weight without putting too much emphasis and focus on it.

So, yeah. I'm always mindful of the decisions and making good choices. Cause obviously like, that's just, I've been racing my whole life. So like, it's kind of just built into like, always have that mindset of like. Knowing roughly what I need to eat and how to eat and when to eat. Um, but I think the biggest thing that's changed is actually fueling on the bike.

Like, I'm sure you might have heard it a bit, but the guys are really consuming crazy amounts of carbohydrates per hour. I had a podcast with, uh, Jeroen Swart, uh, a few weeks ago. Yes. And you walked me through that a little bit. Yeah. What they do on the tour. Yeah. No, I mean, it's really, it's insane. And I think that's the only way the guys are able to train the way they are nowadays.

It's like, you know, if you're fueling that well on the bike, your demands and recovery off the bike is like so, so much more efficient and refined that, you know, when you start training the next day, you're not nearly as tired and you're able to double your workload to get to the same, same end result or, you know, your fatigue, your perception of fatigue.

Is half of what it actually is on the charts. You know, you're able to get double that workload in what you normally would have if you weren't fueling. And I mean, it's the same in the racing. I mean, the race fueling we're using nowadays, you run so rich, you're able to really constantly repeat those high intensity.

Efforts without dropping off. So like I'd say as far as diet and nutrition goes I think that's the biggest thing and like it's constantly evolving and being studied at the minute I mean the guys are trying to push crazy crazy amounts of carbs per hour. It's like time. But can you, can you actually?

Utilize all of them, like if you, cause if you're doing, I know before it was like 60 grams and now it's gone up to like 110, 120 grams, um, in, in like the tour for example, I don't know how much you're doing, um, but I mean can you actually use all those carbs? Yeah, so it takes the gut training to obviously be able to use it, cause I mean if you aren't used to fueling on the bike and then you put that amount of carbohydrate in, I mean your stomach's gonna knot and block and like game over, or you're just not gonna absorb it.

And like with the carbohydrate, you need to put liquid as well, like a lot of people don't understand that, like, you know, in order for carbohydrates to be useful, you need to have hydration with it, because if you, like, drink carbs and eat carbs, you don't actually have water to balance the carbohydrates in your body, and then you basically dehydrate from the inside out if you don't have enough Water from the carbs.

Yeah, I mean like the water and the carbs. I mean, they're like, you know, they work together Yeah, and if you if you don't have that water element, I mean your your body so if you put the carbs in without the water your the Moisture from your body goes to the carbs to get it through So then like, you know, you just like I said dehydrated from the inside out I mean I've been there done that like it's it's horrible.

So it's like yeah, it's all A learning process and like everyone is unique like some guys can go super high like 160 per hour and others would be 50 or 60 like it's really and it also depends on how much you need like it's obviously your body has a storage of glycogen and carbohydrates naturally and like how well how much of that you use I suppose depends also how you need to feel but and transcriber Yeah, it's, it's, it's crazy for, for me at the minute, it's also something that's relatively new to the last two to three years.

It's really been a topic that's discussed a lot and is being adapted and changing a lot. It's not a given recipe that this is how you feel to, to perform in races and training. It's kind of, yeah, adapting. There's like now talks of like really super high carb days and it's like medium carb days, low carb days.

It's like. Yeah, I kind of layering it in now to optimize again, like I say, it's just, it's crazy. I think there's so many knowledgeable people now in the sport industry across all sports that it's. It's not a given recipe that this is how it's done, and that's it. So crazy, okay. That's, and what about something like, uh, a faster training ride?

Do you ever do stuff like that, or no? No, no, never, never. I used to do it in the past. Yeah. Like, I used to absolutely hate it. I never, I never really felt a benefit from it. Like, for me, doing long endurance rides, like, You know, being depleted and tired at the end, like that was enough of a stimulus for me of being like fasted or close to, you know, when you're running empty.

Yeah. I, I didn't really enjoy doing the fasted rides. And then like the recovery afterwards was also really bad because obviously put your body in that state of low carb and energy is low. And like, I mean, I still, you know, live my life after training and I go out, I've got things to do. You know, that's like the other factor that's not counted in for most of the time when you do these crazy hard rides and diets and stuff.

It's like, still got to live life as well around it. Yeah. Um, but yeah, no, I've never been a fan and I don't know, I don't think I really had the, the need for it. It's interesting now, it's just because there's so many things now, I think also with social media and stuff, like, there's just so much, like, People are, you've got like the vegan diet and high carb, low carb, ketogenic, carnivore, fasting.

Like there's just, and I think it's for the average person that is watching everything. I think it's very hard to. know what's the best way because you've got so many different influences and people telling you this is the best and that's the best and this athlete is keto now and they're performing better you know like it's just yeah um I think it's quite tough for people.

I mean my perspective is there is no best way like I think that all those diets have. Developed and become a thing because everyone is different and like, everyone needs certain things for their body to perform better. And then like, because it works for that one person and then goes like wild and like, everyone says this is the next best thing.

But like, I think that you need to take a pinch of salt and kind of do what's best for you. And like, if it's working, like don't, don't bother like looking for change, you know, unless it's like. Yeah. It's like, something rolls on the tick off. Like, I mean, I don't know. I mean, for me to go and like, you know, chain and say like, I don't know, I'm going full keto diet or something like that.

It's like, I'm happy with the diet now and weight and performance and stuff. So like, why would I want to go and try something crazy like that? Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. It's. Yeah, let's see what's going to happen in the next 10 years, but it's already, I mean, half the diets that are out there now, I haven't even, like 10 years ago, I didn't, I hadn't heard of, like, um, and so it's switching gears a little bit, like, to the racing side or the, I don't know, winning side, I guess, like, um, you, obviously you won a lot this year, uh, what, do, do cross country riders party?

Do they, are there, So, Are there like big, uh, after parties or is it kind of just very professional and everyone? Yeah, I mean, I'm quite a quiet guy to myself, I would say. Like, I mean, I've been to a few of the after parties, but really, like, you know, I mean, when I won Worlds in 2018, under 23, you know, I mean, I went back to the Airbnb with the team and, tonic each and, like, cranked on, went to bed and, like, there was Marathon Worlds the next weekend.

There's both me and NoKey, you know. Which I kind of regret that I didn't really like celebrate that more, like soak it in. I mean this year after the Worlds I went to the after party and like that was quite a big party. But I think like being such a big goal like it was something that I really wanted to celebrate.

But like for me the most part of it like I'm really content and happy to celebrate with my small group of supporters and family really. I'm quite a tight knit, close friends kind of guy and not, not big into partying. I think it's just, you know, been racing like the whole life. I think I never really made that transition or had friends that was into it like growing up.

So it's like something that's kind of strange to me in a way. To go out and mingle and get, you know, completely hammered and listen to loud music. Like, yeah, yeah, it's a, quite a quiet guy. And I mean, on a, not the same topic, but you see, I'm wearing OnlyFans cap. Like, uh, there's been, obviously in the last couple of years, they've moved into sport quite a lot.

And there's, you know, I think they have like 300 athletes now across, across the world. Um. Some people love it, some people hate it. Uh, various opinions. Um, obviously the whole goal for them is to kind of change people's Perception of them or the image. Uh, yeah, what's, what's your take on it? Yeah, I mean, it's something I really haven't looked into, to be honest.

Like, I know of it. Like, I mean, as you say, kind of when they first started out, like, kind of, obviously, got the vibe of what they, people turned into. I think that was the problem. Yeah. But it's evolved a lot. And like, I see a lot of the professional sportsmen now, like, obviously using it and, and all that.

But I mean, yeah, to be honest, I haven't really Dived into it too much, but it's something I would like to to learn a bit more about. I mean from your side I mean, what what do you actually do with the OnlyFans? Obviously you have your account and people subscribe to it and stuff But like do you provide like tips and tricks and like?

Yeah, so it's I mean I do a lot of like behind the scenes stuff and like raw content So obviously you have Instagram and whatever and you'll do a reel you'll do photos or whatever but Um, there's a lot of stuff which doesn't make it on there because, yeah, there's just, you can't just keep posting, you know, all day long.

Yeah, you're on a spam, yeah. Exactly, so. Yeah, it's a lot of stuff, you know, and sort of personal stuff, uh, between races, between events, like maybe training tips or bike hacks or anything. I mean, there's some of the same stuff on as well. That's on my Instagram, but it's, it's a lot of. Yeah, just extra, I guess it's like a like an inside scoop.

Yeah. Okay. Um, which is kind of what the whole platform was Originally designed for yeah, I mean obviously it just got taken off in a bit of a different direction from the creators But yeah, I just found it interesting and is it by request? Like the content or is it completely up to you? So it's, no, it's up to me.

Um, but then you can, so like my account is free, so people subscribe to me and, but you can, it's up to me if I want to make it a monthly subscription fee or. If you want to do something like a post that's particularly valuable, um, you could then put a price on that post if you wanted to. Yeah. Um, but the whole goal for me is to try to get more people on the platform, uh, or the right people.

So, um, but yeah, I think it's obviously with Instagram and stuff, when you have a lot of, you know, you've got a lot of followers and a lot of people messaging you and stuff, it's, it's pretty hard to Get back to, you know, respond to everyone and so that's with OnlyFans It's kind of a platform where it's a more personal sort of relationship where that's more invested You know the people and so you give them a little bit more time And so yeah, I can imagine your subscriber base would be then a little bit Yeah.

Like a community. It's not going to be hundreds of thousands. I mean, obviously it can be, I guess. I mean. Well, I mean. You provide good content. Yeah. Yeah. But as far as the general, it would be a little bit more of a tight knit kind of community of people. So, I mean, they've got kind of something similar now on Instagram with the subscription thing.

I don't know. I haven't really. I haven't looked into it too much. But, um. It's kind of like the true, I guess, supposed to be like the true fans of people that are like really interested in you and not just click follow because they saw a funny, a funny reel or something. Uh, and, and similar topic with the social media stuff, like how, what's your take or like how has that affected you?

Cause I feel like when we start, well, when I started, um, there wasn't, I mean it was Facebook, but there wasn't Instagram and everything that all came afterwards. And even the beginning, it wasn't really like a big thing. But now as a, as an athlete, you kind of have to be doing it, um, or at least I, in my experience, like a lot of the, a lot of the teams of our sponsors, like that's a requirement, you know, that you have to be creating this many pieces of content or doing interviews or doing this or doing that.

Um, and how do you find that is like with the, obviously you've got so much. So many demands on you as a with your training load with travel and everything and now you've got this other side Yeah, I mean it's something I think it's quite tough to be honest to balance and like it takes quite a lot of energy For me, I think there's some guys that can do it quite easily and naturally and they're good with the captions and getting the content And like I think it's more of a filter I think, you know, like a personal filter, like, you know, you need to be able to just push play and like, you don't care really what it looks like, what it says, like you just push content out.

Like, I think those guys are the ones that are really thriving and have a lot of followers and success, but like, kind of, I'm quite quiet and reserved for like, for me, I think too much about like, honestly, like, you know, you put it out and you're like, Oh, you know, does it, does it give the right image? Does it, you know, it's a caption, like.

Uh, actually like accurate for what I like, you know, want to dictate or represent and like, I'm also conscious, like, and you put stories up, you know, like it's obviously, I mean, a lot of the followers are young, so, you know, you also want to give the correct advice and like feedback across to them. So it's, I don't know, for me, it takes a lot of energy.

Like I probably. Yeah, I think too much and make it difficult for myself, but like, I want to do a good job with that as well. And I think I'm probably at the point where I might have to handbrake and look for outside some, some support to try to take that stress off of me. But I think it's just a big marketing tool.

I mean, all the teams and sponsors really use social media as like a reference for like how valuable you are off the bike. You know, because I mean when you're not racing, I mean essentially that's kind of where they're pulling the value from in a way. You know, when you are just training for months on end to get ready for World Cups, for example, like, you know, those months that you're not racing, like they need to try, get a value or try pull something to, to justify what's going on.

So it's like, excuse me, uh, yeah, it's kind of like, yeah, to try justify that you have a bit of pressure and obligation to, to do a good job on the social. So. But yeah, it's it's a strange concept still to me because I think I'm like kind of I mean, how old are you? I feel like we're really similar. I'm a little bit older than you.

I'm 30. I just turned 34 this year. Okay. I think we kind of like Some are still in the same gen that I also kind of, but like Facebook was very like, but put like some stupid updates, push play and like, there was no real pressure on it, you know, and no one really cared how many followers and likes and whatever stuff was like nowadays, it's like, I feel like a lot of guys are feeling quite pressured, like to deliver, you need to have so many followers, you need to have likes, you need to have so many stories.

Yeah. Like, and you know, if you build yourself a big fan base and like, they all commenting and messaging and stuff, like, you know, I mean, obviously like I appreciate and like you see all the support and stuff and it's really motivating, but like, it's impossible to get back to everyone because I mean, you've got, you know, 10, 000, 15, 000 people commenting or stuff on like a story or a post or replying to it.

Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's just quite hard to let go. Yeah. Yeah. I think not a lot of people probably see the socials like from our perspective and like, it's not easy, you know, I mean, I always want like fresh content and like Insta bangers and like cool captions and updates on like everything, but like, realistically, it's just not possible for everyone.

I think some guys can just do it. Like I said, like really easy, but yeah, there's not so much. Yeah. You, one of the guys that's just bangs content out all the time and, but not, yeah, it's. Yeah, it's not easy like I can tell you that like and it's a lot of honestly someday It's a love hate relationship like sometime.

I mean, I enjoy making content but it is as you said like it brings a lot of pressure as well, especially because like For me as I've moved away from like the racing is not the main focus anymore like now the content is the main focus Which is it's a great opportunity on the one side because like I can still keep you know My focus is still on riding bikes and that's still my my life and what I love to do But at the same time it brings you know When you've got brands and things that are behind behind you and expecting your whether you do a video On YouTube or on Instagram or whatever and they're expecting a certain amount of views and a certain amount of reach And then it's not performing and then you maybe maybe you worked on that for days or weeks Like and then you you know it's it's quite hard then to deal with because you're like flip I invested so much time and then you feel like you're representing yourself through the through the content.

And now when that's doing well, not doing well, then you're like, you feel, it can sometimes feel negatively about yourself because now you're like, well, I feel like I'm not worth as much now because like people aren't liking this piece of content, you know, and it's, it's just, it's not true obviously because it's the way the algorithms work and stuff.

Sometimes stuff just doesn't do well and it's not because it's not good. It's just, yeah, unfortunately that's how it works. But yeah. It is difficult. And I think that's why I asked you because like I have found that quite difficult to balance, especially when I was racing as well, because like, I feel like it's maybe a little easier if you only focused on that, or only focused on racing and not focusing on, but if you're trying to do both, then it's like, sometimes you just want to go, you know, just want to go ride your bike and not think about doing a video or doing a photo or photos or, you know, it's a deep, a deep rabbit hole, I think, because I think it's, Like, I mean, I, again, I'm not a social media expert by any means, but like, it looks like it changes like so much, you know, like if your cover photo is wrong or like your video is like five seconds too long or like something silly like that, you know, like the trend, you know, if the trend goes from a five second video to a 10 and, or like down to a two second or something silly and you don't have that specifically, like you're gone, like the algorithm kicks it out or.

People don't see it or they don't like it and like, or not necessarily don't like it, but like, doesn't engage or fit into the same category of whatever most people are seeing and then it's an outlier. And then it disappears. And it's like, I mean, you have to be full time to actually follow and predict and navigate that whole thing.

So that's why I think I might just leave it to a professional, like going forward. Like it'll still be me probably on the replies and stuff, but like the actual content just needs to be, like. I think a lot of, I think a lot of top athletes are having help because it is When you, so you can't mentally split your focus so much because it, it honestly, if you want to do it well, like you have to put in a lot of time, but I mean, if you're putting in big days on the bike or whatever sport you're doing, you know, like it's just impossible, like you can't, one thing is going to suffer.

Um, and I think more mentally you get it. I felt like it's easy to get burnt out doing that because it's just like, you can't be putting in a five hour training ride and then you come home and you just want to unwind. But now you're like, Oh shit, I have to film a video now. Like, you know, or multiple videos.

No, it's taxing. Yeah, for sure. Um, but I think it's in the one side it's opened up opportunities for people, which is good. Um, people that maybe wouldn't have. Being able to make a career out of, out of the sport because they wouldn't have been talented enough Necessarily to win at the top level or something.

I think that's good. But um, yeah at the same time It's it also gets a bit of a bad rap of it or a bad rap But like I think people underestimate how much goes into it I mean where even if we're doing like now we're doing a podcast or whatever like all these videos people just go on YouTube and They click the video.

Oh cool. That's you know, and but every video that's out there whether it's a 10 second reel. It's a Two hour podcast like it's yeah the amount of work that goes in from the weather it's from the planning to the caption to the Thumbnail to the you know, the whole the whole thing is I think underestimated a lot by people.

No agreed I mean, I just like a recent example would be like that giant launch video for the off road team I mean it was eight hours of filming for for me, you know sprinting up down left right follow shots drones the works You know And the reel that went out was 45 seconds long. And like people like, it goes by and it's like, flash, flash, flash, see me, see me at the end.

Oh yeah, cool, Alan's on Giant now. But they don't realize like, it took like a whole day of filming, you know, like sprinting up and down and like, yeah, broken afterwards. And like, just a little clip that comes up. Yeah, just normal, oh yeah, cool, like it, off you go, next one. It's like, yeah, nah, it's cool. The world is, uh, changing, eh?

Yeah, flip. There's TikTok now, and all sorts, so. Yeah, we should get dancing now. Yeah. Um, and, and, what, I mean, obviously that, for me, that's something that I found quite difficult as an athlete. What's been, what do you find, you know, cause I think as a pro athlete everyone's like, Oh sweet, you know, you live the dream, just travel the world, like, you know, but.

I've seen the other side of it as well. It's not always as easy as it as it looks on Instagram. Um, what's been the toughest part for you being, you know, living this lifestyle and being, you know, full-time athlete? I think the, the hardest thing is like, it, it is like a lifestyle and you know, it does take quite a bit of sacrifice and discipline to stick to the plan and constantly be mindful of performance and chasing goals.

And I think, like for me, the hardest part is when. You do everything right and like, you're still not getting the performance or achieving the goals that you've set out to achieve. I think that's kind of like really a game changer and quite a hard, like hard moment, you know, to keep pushing and fighting in the same way, stay disciplined, keep sacrificing.

Like, you know, I mean, our off seasons are so short, you know, it's like. I mean, this, this, this past off season was really short, obviously with my transition to the road, but typically it'll be four weeks, you know, one month, so you have one month to do what you want, you know, if it's fishing, moto, hiking, like, that's your, that's your time, like, in and around that, you have to be mindful, like, you know, if I just say, screw it, I'm going to go now and go hike, lion said, like, I, you know, Can't because I'm gonna be broken two days afterwards and I need to train the next two days like To achieve my goals that I'm going out for so it's like, you know Every day is accounted for and there's a plan and like you need to now wake up after execute that plan And then obviously I'd balance what I need to do with my day in life like rounded individual nuggets but it's always like in the back of your head like It's kind of just need to you know, balance it and not buy it off too much.

I felt like you As harsh as it sounds, I feel like being an athlete, you kind of need to be a bit selfish. No, it is. You know, you have to focus, you are the priority, like your performance is the main goal. You know, that's, that's what's bringing, bringing home the bacon. Yeah, and it's tough because like, you know, as soon as you slacken off and you, you know, like really start accommodating and oh yeah, like no problem, you can just do this.

And oh yeah, I can just go do that. And then like, you know, if you look at the plan, you know, you look at like. Two weeks with the training and you see the few things you slid in here and there just to fit in and adjust and all y'all know for Brian, you have a late night here and then you like. The consequence is like, you know, it's a ripple effect, it comes down and you see it like at the end of the, the period that maybe you've lost, you know, like three, four days worth of training that you could have gotten in and like, at the level that we're trying to target and go for nowadays, like that three, four days of training makes a big difference on how you're going to turn up to that start line.

And, I mean, support wise, like, you know, I see your, your wife in the background. I mean, you guys have been together for a long time now, um, and obviously you're with your parents and stuff. How, you know, how was that, you know, when you, how did that conversation go? And you told your parents, like, I want to be a, you know, pro cross country rider.

Was it something that just sort of naturally evolved? Yeah, I think, uh, yeah, they had belief, like, from really young already that that was, when I said I was gonna do that, I mean, they were cool with it, and they, obviously, they saw Greg and Barry, and, like, they had, you know, really successful careers, really, at their younger age, back then, and I don't think there was any concern or doubt, I think, also, I'm probably one of the last few, like, that actually came from cycling, when there was money in, in the sport, at a younger age.

Cause I mean, nowadays, like, if you are coming out of school and you want to get a, or, I mean, I had, I had contracts, I was getting paid, you know, when I was still in school, but I mean, like, from, from 16, yeah, like, from, uh, BMC, South Africa. Crazy, okay. So, like, I mean. Back then there were so many other teams as well, and they were paying like really big salaries because nowadays there's not many teams that are left standing.

And like salary is a salary. Like if you need more than like, sorry, you need to go need to get a job. Like it's, it's not possible. You can't negotiate. Whereas, you know, like when I was, I don't know, 18, 19, 20, like in that era, like there was still quite a few really strong teams that you could actually.

Shop around a bit and play them off and add a personal sponsor and like, you know, it was playable But I mean nowadays it's really really tough. So and I mean through this journey I mean, I'm sure that there must have been you know, people see all the good stuff they see all the the winning and the champagne showers and stuff, but like I'm sure there must have been some tough times as well, like also mentally, like, was there ever a moment that you sort of really thought, you're not sure if you want to keep going down this path?

Yeah, well, I never, I've never thought of throwing the towel in, but like, probably the toughest moment in my career was actually after I won my first World Cup. Really? Yeah, it was in Canada, Mont Sainte Anne. It was twenty

17? So under 23. It was either 2017 or 2018, but like the, um, the team Spur that I was with, uh, the team said like in the early parts of the season, like that was the last season and like, you know, it wasn't going to continue. So like. In the back of my mind that whole time, I thought, you know, like I really need to make a plan here to get a factory ride.

Otherwise, this is going to be not sustainable anymore. I don't know what I'm going to do, how I'm going to navigate to continue racing. And, you know, I won that world cup in, in Canada. I thought, all right, that's it done. Like, you know, I had like, I had obviously a few months of pressure on myself thinking like I need to win or give a result to get a team to like.

have an option going forward and I won and it didn't make a difference. You know, like I shopped around and the guys were, I mean, the first comments were saying like, Oh yeah, I was outside of Europe. So it doesn't count. You need to win a one in Europe for it to count. But I mean, all the big dogs are there.

Yeah, I know, I know. It was super strange, but like, that was really my low point. And I mean, I, I was probably bleak afterwards and I thought, like, alright, I mean, I'm gonna have to go get a, like, job, you know, when I'm back here and then race on the side. And then, yeah, I was just fortunate enough that I won world championships, like, a few weeks later.

And then, like, that obviously got everyone's attention. And then, then I had a few, a few doors open and, and off I went again. But yeah, it was quite a low point thinking, like, it's actually, insane how brutal sport is that like, even if you win, like it's how you win and how often you win and like, you know, there's always something it's not just straightforward.

And like, and so obviously there's, I'm sure there's going to be a lot of youngsters, you know, that are looking up to you now and, and wanting to be you, uh, in your shoes, like what, if you could, you know, give people some advice as to, you know, what has helped you and what you'd recommend if they wanted to get to where you are, what would you would say this is like the most important thing?

Well, like, I mean, I would say probably patience would be like the key point. I think that like, I, It's, it's really tough to say, cause I know like not everyone has the same support and like luxury that I've had in my career with support and sponsors and contracts and stuff. But I think like, if you can figure out a way to sustain it, like performance is not an overnight thing.

Like it's really a year on year progression thing. And I think if you get overnight success, like you need to be cautious of making it sustainable. And I think for me, it's just being. Keeping the head up and just constantly chipping away and you know, like going top 30, top 20, top 10, top 5 and then like now it's only top 3 is like the goal.

So it's like, you know, it's not something that is just given. There's no recipe to just get straight to the front. It's like, as long as you are making improvements and moving forward, like you're doing an excellent job and like. That's enough. I think that's like adopting that mindset and accepting that is enough like in my in my opinion I think if your threshold is 340 and it moves to 345 like you're moving forward So like don't go and try reinvent the wheel now like you are moving forward like long as it's going like that and it's gonna come at some point and if you hadn't Become professional cyclist or mountain biker.

What, what do you think you would have been doing? I'd like to think like an enduro rider on the motorbikes. I didn't move to Africa now recently, you know, and I got inspired. Let's maybe change careers at some point. That would be a first. Pro cross country, road rider, gone over to pro enduro. Giving Wade Young a run.

No, I mean, uh, yeah, I really enjoy the enduro, but yeah, still those enduro boys, they're a different league. Yeah, that's, that is another level. It's, it's, it's actually pretty cool to see like firsthand, you know, cause I don't, I don't get exposed to too many other sports, but you know, to see a different discipline where someone commits.

Basically the same amount of focus and time and energy as what I do to the bicycle, to obviously the motorbike and seeing how efficient and how good and how, like, natural they are on the bike from their training. Like it's, it's really, really cool to see, like, if you really commit to something and go for it, like what it actually looks like on a different world.

And when last were you on a downhill bike? Too long ago, I don't care. Probably like a big head e bike would be the closest, like a 160mm e bike. E bike? Nah, come on. I mean, the down, the last downhill bike I got off of was like 26 inch, eh. So I mean, you haven't ridden a down bike since you had one, like since, since you're Morewood wasn't in, Morewood wasn't, yeah, but I mean, you uplift those things, you can't ride up the hill.

Uh, it's funny when people, when you're on the back of the Bucky or something and then people are screaming or shouting at you like, oh, you guys are lazy, whatever, pedal that thing up the hill like, yo, you get on this bike and try to pedal it up. No chance. No, it'd be interesting. Cause I've, I've been watching and following obviously downhill.

I mean, it's at every world cup and I see all the guys preparing and see the course, see the conditions, you know, and it's, it's, it's wild and I do wonder and like question like how much has those bikes involved in like, yeah. That, you know, I mean, like, for example, like cross country, like the tires and rims and inserts and suspension, like it's made in the last two years, I think we're going maybe 15, 20 seconds a lap quicker, just on equipment.

Crazy. So, I mean, like if Daniel is following that same path, which I know it is, like, it must be insane, like how good it is now. I mean, yeah, my, my last memories of the dyno bike was a bit of a pogo and a buckled aluminium rim, but like, it's been a while. It would be interesting to, to get. To get you on a like because especially now like being being the world champ like Getting onto a down bike because it's something that hasn't I haven't seen before personally I mean, I think nino might might have gotten a down bike at some point But yeah, it's not something you see every day for sure and I think I mean you obviously had the background and actually a lot of the Um, quite a lot, Carl Platt also raced downhill as a, as a youngster, which I didn't know either.

It seems like quite a common thing, that if you want to, want to be a good XC racer or marathon XC, then you need to race downhill first. No, exactly, exactly. Got to start them young. Um, and, have you given, I know you're still, you're sort of in the peak of your career now, but like, have you given any thought as to what you want to do after?

After you're done with mountain bike racing? Yeah, like it's a few side hustles I'm busy working on at the minute. Um, but nothing, nothing too major at the minute. Like it's kind of like back to that social media thing. It's like the same mindset. It's like it's, if you start planning like retirement and what you're going to do after and stuff.

Like it takes so much energy. Yeah. It takes the focus away from what you're currently doing. That's really tough. So there's like a few months of a year, you know, you have time to kind of start planning and putting things together. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of has crossed my mind a few times, but I think still have a good five, six years Yeah, left in me before I need to like maybe consider retiring.

I mean, you never know Maybe I can do like a great man. I'm going to you know, it's 40 plus but yeah, I doubt it But yeah for sure. We'll need to have a look see and there's a there's a question that I ask Every guest, um, and that is what does success mean to you?

Achieving what you've set out, I guess. Probably, I don't know, it's quite a, something I haven't really thought of, to be honest. It's always different, I mean, some people say that they think money is success, or some people say, oh, they're reaching their goals, or, or personal, or their family, or whatever. You know, there's so many different ways to look at it.

I mean, like, for me, I think success is just really, like, whatever the goals are, you know, on the bike, off the bike, like, going out and actually Achieving that and like living the way you want to, like for me is a success, you know, like not, not compromising in a way, you know, like if you settle for, I don't know, staying six months, six months, you know, here as Africa, six months in Europe, like, you know, just sticking to the plan and, you know, achieving top tens at World Cups, like that's like, I don't set my Yeah.

Okay. Goals like sky high because that's like goals, but like success is like sub goals for me Like, you know, like like basics that I just need to achieve, you know, like to live a balanced life like success You know, I mean, you don't want to be like a guy that just bikes bikes bikes and like that's that's a you know, very Mature way to look at it.

I think I'm not not a lot of I haven't heard that so far So as long as I'm doing this podcast, I haven't heard that outlook Um, and for you, what do you think has been the biggest strength or factor that's gotten you to this point? You know, if you could, you know, pinpoint one thing. I would say probably resilience, I would say.

I think like, the ability to get in the box probably every day. I think that's like, I don't think there's many that's able to consistently, like, put themselves in the headlocker like day in, day out, and like, Just make that like a lifestyle in a way, you know, that you're just used to training camp and like rest, adapt, rest, like just piecing it together and like still balancing the life like outside of it.

I think it's quite tough. A lot of guys are able to go for it, but it's not balanced. Yeah. Because I think I'm able to kind of take a lot on my shoulders and get what I need to done. I think that's probably a key to my success. Probably my coach would say elsewise, but yeah, dude. Thanks so much. Yeah No, it was awesome to to catch up and and find out how to put yourself in the hood blocker Yeah, good to have you.

I just know enjoying some sun

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