Cameron Van der burgh, when was the point for their realization? Like, okay, I can actually make a career out of this. My dad said to me, look, man, if you haven't made it, he's like, you will stay in my house and you will study. And so you can swim, but like swimming is not the main thing for you. Cameron Vanderberg is one of the best swimmers to ever come from South Africa.

He was consistently one of the best swimmers in the world for over a decade. He has set multiple world records and won gold and silver medals at the Olympics. Now, he is taking on his next challenge in finance. What was your hardest moment and was there a time where you considered taking a different path?

I think the closest to that probably would have been 2014. You look at how many days left on earth you potentially have. And you just plot it out and you look at it like little dots. How many you've lived and how many you've left. It's fucking terrifying. What is your definition of success? The most important decision you probably do make in your life is who you marry.

How you define your success in life should never be...

Cameron van der burgh. Uh Thanks for coming on the show. So it's great to have you. Hey buddy, been a while since we chatted, so it's really great to reconnect again. What does life look like for you now? I mean, obviously you've been retired a few years. Um, well, it's still as exciting as what it used to be. Um, although just the excitement comes from different places.

Uh, you know, I'm married now, I've got two kids. Uh, beautiful, you know, babies that I've been very blessed with, that'll keep me on, uh, On my toes, I can actually hear the one screaming in the background already. I guess she's not getting what she wants, wants at the moment with the, with the grandparents. Um, and yeah, and we, uh, I've, I've retired from swimming, um, you know, moved over to London and, uh, and I began, began my career in finance, um, as a, as a analyst and then a portfolio manager, um, and one of the world's biggest hedge funds.

So, uh, so my life is extremely different, but like I said, just as exciting at the same time, a little bit colder, unfortunately. Uh, the London weather definitely doesn't beat South Africa and, uh, and the rest of Europe. Um, but, uh, but it's also been a very good place for me and, you know, won my Olympic gold medal that side.

My kids were born that side. So London will always have a special place in my heart and, uh, and, um, yeah, it's, uh, it's, it's a unique place to be, I think, where. Yeah, you have top achievers in every discipline always coming there, whether it's there in New York or in Dubai is becoming obviously one of the big hubs, but I love being in these places where you get to interact with, you know, people at the, at the highest level of their profession, uh, or, uh, you know, um, culture or sport or arts or whatever.

And, you know, there's something forever on there. So was that always the plan? I mean, cause obviously going from a professional athlete to, to being a financial analyst, It's quite a, a big, uh, jump. Um, was that sort of always something on the cards or, um, yeah. When did that sort of come about? Well, you know, I think in hindsight the cards were always there.

Um, you know, before I actually became a professional swimmer in, uh, the last two years of school. Yeah, in South Africa, we had something called the JSE schools challenge. And so you got, uh, like a paper portfolio, you traded for, I think it was about six months, which was reflected on the real economy, uh, or the Johannesburg stock exchange.

And, uh, and I won that, um, two years in a row, grade 11, grade 12, and, uh, and earned a nice. I think it was like 20, 000 rand at a time. So by the time I finished school, I had about 40, 000 rand that I was investing and playing with of real money. Um, and doing quite simple strategies, uh, that I'd learned, you know, just like Googling kind of these like simple, like extra of carry trades, relative value trades, and, um, you know, in hindsight really got quite lucky, I think, uh, relative to what I know now, but, uh, you know, that really sparked the interest and, uh, and eventually led to me.

Study economics and, um, and then, you know, later another pivotal part was being picked up by, by invest tech, which, which is South Africa's, uh, you know, premier, uh, private bank. Of course you would, you would also know, we, we, we shared the sponsorship and that's, that's where we, you know, where we met and, and, um, you know, and they were managing, you know, portion of my money and it sort of came down to, you know, me asking them like, why are you doing this?

Why are you doing that? You know, and, uh, and sitting with a couple of guys and that just, you know, it was sort of something that always really piqued the interest. And. And, uh, and then, yeah, I think post zooming I had tried something else in, uh, in marketing for a bit, but, uh, it didn't seem to be my calling and, uh, and then, you know, that was exactly, that was touch 58.

Yeah. Yeah. And, um, you know, and that just sort of, uh, it wasn't in the end, you know, the calling, that's something that I got up every day and was like, yes, I really want to go do this kind of thing. And, uh, but, you know, quite quickly sort of, uh, Became friends with a lot of those guys. And as I say, a lot of my strategy also with swimming was always about like, just, I didn't, I was always open to trying new things.

And if it worked for me, I'd, I'd include that in my arsenal of skills, uh, or create an adaptation. And, uh, and again, I think that's just with everything in the world and you'd probably end up the same, right. It's like, You know, you see somebody do something or some technique and you give it a try and does it work for you?

Do not, could you improve upon it? Can you modify it? Um, you know, why, why should we reinvent the wheel? Um, you know, and, and, uh, it's, uh, it comes back to that thing. I think also for me is like, I am never scared to ask for help. Um, you know, so many people think that just cause you're in an individual sport, you did it all alone, but like, everyone knows that, you know, you don't do these things alone.

You have a huge team of people that you rely on and that, uh, got you where you are. And, uh, and also outside of the team, it's just, again, like all those people that came before you, um, you know, you're building off of what they had done. And, you know, the, the nice thing that I, I'd heard this quote is really beautiful actually, where it's like, you know, in, in like the timeline of civilization, what part are you playing?

Because You know, we all like have come along this, you know, huge lineage. Right. And like, we are here in this modern, we're here right now. Like what part are we playing for the next generation? Like we not, we can't do it all, but like, we can do something, we're doing some parts and then it goes on. And so.

That I think is a really like eloquent way in just in life. But, uh, and whether that's like how you're doing it for your family, for sport, for professional life. There's a lot of different, um, um, you know, ways you can, you can put that into. I find it's, it's very fascinating. The, you know, the connection also, as you touched on there, um, with sport and business and how a lot of the same, uh, you know, traits, um, apply across the board.

Um, and I feel like a lot of, if you know what it takes to be a professional athlete, you can often, you know, you you've got what it takes to also make it in business as well, because I mean, it's a lot of, you know, determination, work ethic, you know, and, um, sort of, I think that's the biggest thing between the people that make it and don't make it, um, that they.

Yeah. Um, especially in a sport like, you know, especially in a sport like swimming or, or downhill mountain biking, you know, it's, uh, they're not, they're not the rugby's and golf's and, and so you have to be creative and, and, uh, to, to be able to make a good living out of it. Um, it's, uh, it's not as easy as some of the other pathways.

Um, I mean, on the, on the swimming side, what, what, let's maybe rewind it back a little bit. Um, where, where did that start? Why, why swimming? Um, well, swimming chose me, to be honest, I think, uh, which, which I think a lot of guys have. I mean, I've only heard of a couple of really talented guys, you know, where it's like AB de Villiers or someone that's like, Oh, I could have played rugby or cricket kind of thing.

Could pick and choose kind of thing. Um, you know, for me, I, uh, as a youngster, I, you know, I did all the different sports, uh, at school, but swimming, I just really excelled at. And, um, and I think, you know, when you excel at something, it also, it's kind of a compounding effect where you, you know, you, you do well at something.

You start doing well at it. Um, makes you want to work harder at it. You know, you do well again, you improve and then it's a flywheel, right? And, uh, you know, unless you don't have the work ethic, of course, then it sort of ends there. Um, but I think for most guys at, you know, at an international level, everybody's talented, but, um, But that's the guys that are obviously willing to put in the work as well and actually, you know, put that in.

But swimming for me, yeah, I think, uh, I, I, it kind of came down to where, um, I was, uh, always in, in like some kind of a different sport. And, uh, I was very hyperactive as a young kid and I was on, uh, on, um, Ritalin. And unfortunately it wasn't, uh, like, you know, the medication, I would say it wasn't really great for, uh, for me, it really kind of zombied me out and I think killed my personality.

And so the idea was that my mom, you know, thought there must be another way. And so that's how I picked up all these different sports. And then from that, um, swimming was slowly came from like once a week to twice a week to full time and, uh, and, uh, you know, had, had, uh, You know, gone from also like sort of, uh, high school swimming to a club, you know, and that's sort of natural progression.

And then you eventually, you know, work your way on, but, um, but yeah, it's just, I mean, you know, incredible. I think just as a youngster to be in the situation, to, to be in a club or in a professional sport of some sorts, because it just gives you such a lovely, like sense of community and teaches you so many great skills in life.

I mean, I'm a big advocate for that, um, to really push kids. outside of school sport into like a proper sport as well. Not a proper sport, but you get it as in like a proper club because yeah, you know, that, that, uh, again, like it really comes down to them being, um, you know, you have squad mates and you're held, you know, you're held, uh, responsible.

It's like, Oh, why weren't you training yesterday? You know, like what was going on kind of thing. So you also, you know, form that sense of community and belonging and, um, dedication and, uh, and that really builds you up for life. And even if you. Never became a professional athlete, just those skill sets, as you had mentioned, rightly so, like I think a lot of professional sportsmen and especially I do find individual sportsmen do exceptionally well because, because you have to just figure out a lot of stuff by yourself, you know, in a team environment, um, you know, your flight tickets are booked for you, training is scheduled for you.

You don't have to think about a single thing where as an individual, you start out in a group environment, but, but quite quickly as you You know, you have to tinker and tailor made things for yourself because you are the individual relative to just being like a big team. And, uh, and, you know, you're booking your own flights and you're making your own plans and you're fundraising and you're doing things.

So, you know, it's a little entrepreneurial. It was very entrepreneurial actually, um, in a, in a sense. And, you know, you can think of yourself as a business. You know, you're marketing yourself, um, you're fundraising, you know, you're allocating your capital, like your time and your training. Um, you know, what's your return on investment?

Uh, you're saying no to certain opportunities. Uh, you're managing risk, you know, risk, IE, like, uh, don't go out on a Friday night because you're going to get drunk. You can't train on Saturday. So like, that's a risk you can't take, you know. Um, you know, so there's, uh, there's certain different things I, I, I think, uh, that's that, that's very comparable to a business.

Yeah. I find that, yeah, it's, it's, it's very interesting. Um, you know, and I think that's helped me tremendously as I'm sure it did you, um, being in an individual sport. Um, and obviously, so there's a similarity there. Um, so in mountain biking, although it's an individual sport, um, a lot of the professionals they have, um, you know, they've got teams and then it's.

Like being employed, you know, you've got a team manager, you've got a chef and a masseuse and a travel agent and everything is done for them, which I guess for performance is a good thing. But in terms of your life, um, and life experience and job experience, it's definitely not a good thing. And I feel like I've done it always on my own and always had my own sponsorships.

And as you said, I had to arrange, you know, all your travel and all your marketing and building your own personal brand, essentially. And, uh, you know, I think that has a huge benefit, um, for, for people later down the line. Yeah. No, I think you did exceptionally well as well, considering, you know, um, you know, swimming is a mainstream sport, I would definitely say.

And so I think it was easier for us. Um, you know, relative to, to downhill mountain biking, I think is, is it's doesn't get as much publicity, shall we say, and like time and time on, on media. So I think, you know, the job that you did was, it was, uh, you know, quite ahead of the pack at the, at that day when even like social media was still in the beginning because uh, you know, you really had to find unique ways to go out and get yourself sponsorships and get yourself seen.

Um, so, uh, so I always admire that about you. Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, it was, it was interesting. I mean, obviously we met as you touched on earlier that. We met through investec. Um, and, um, at the time that was a very sort of out there, uh, sponsorship, uh, no one, especially for a sport like mine. Um, so, which, yeah, was good for me, uh, obviously, um, kept me being able to do the sport, but, you know, but I mean, even swimming, um, it's not the.

I wouldn't say it's the most lucrative sport. Um, so that was something I actually wanted to chat to you about as well. It's, it's sort of how you, um, you know, how you were able to approach that. And cause you had a few, you know, very big partnerships, um, like Audi Investec as we touched on. Um, yeah. How, how, how were you able to sort of secure those and, and, um, Yeah.

Did you have some help? Do you have a management team or did you do that yourself? I think, you know, company likes good company. And, uh, you know, I was fortunate. I think my first sponsorship was Tag Heuer, which was non like monetary. It was just like watches. Right. And it was You know, like a family run business that was, that was, um, you know, and they kind of seem to do this for a lot of guys in, in the industry, which is great.

And so, you know, you, you kind of picked up the first one and then invest that came along as my second. And then from then on, um, you know, I had a manager in the beginning, um, but the management team didn't do very well. And, uh, what often I'd found in the end was that I was. The one that was networking and bringing all the deals and they would just like take a fee.

Right. And so in the end, I, I, um, had a friend of mine, I'm raking nothing who managed just the negotiation for me for me. And so I would say, look, you know, I found a lead, uh, you know, Samsung and I've developed a relationship and, but I need some, I need you to negotiate the deal because it's a little bit more difficult.

It's very personal, obviously, when you say, Hey man, give me a million Rand and they're like, no, you're worth 200K, you know, and. And you know, your ego is kind of, but you know, it's just as an example, right? And then you kind of obviously get the point. So I think the negotiation is better if you're removed from that because it's not so personal.

Um, and so, uh, so that's the tactic that I didn't play, but, uh, but yeah, I mean, you know, at the end, most of those sponsorships I, I source myself. And again, You know, just from networking, going to different, uh, events and meeting people and, um, and, uh, yeah, putting yourself out there. And so again, like, it's like this marketing thing, right?

Putting yourself out, like leads, getting out, you know, you know, and also a lot of these sponsorships. I didn't, it wasn't like I would meet somebody that night and that would have led to the sponsorship. I would meet someone, stay in touch with them, you know, meet them again, probably in like within a year, over a year, build some kind of a relationship and, uh, And then, you know, this would, uh, would, uh, sort of develop into a potential sponsorship.

And that also is like, you know, maybe one out of 10 leads, leads to that. Right. So again, um, you know, I sound like a sales guy here, but, uh, which I'm definitely not, but, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's, uh, you know, something, but, and out of that, I mean, you know, still today, I keep in touch with a lot of these people.

It wasn't just like a purely transactional. Um, sort of relationship. And so, you know, when I come back, I still make sure that I go and see, you know, the guys at Audi or, or, uh, invest. I can put you a lot of the guys that moved on now. So like a lot of the old guard that I knew there's he's gone, but still still, you know, stay in touch or we'll go and we'll play golf or do something.

And, um, and so, yeah, it's, it's, it's important to do, to do that kind of thing. I think, um, and that really helped me. Yeah. Uh, Be able to build the portfolio of companies. But I think, you know, the other side to it as well, that people don't think about is that, um, you know, it's very, uh, easy, I think in South Africa to come to go, you know, try and compare oneself to the, an international.

Um, like market and I think you need to have a good idea, a good handle of like, what is your real value, where's your market and like, where do you play into? And I think, you know, the connection or the breakdown of a lot of times is that people might think that their market. Is bigger than what it is, and they demand a certain maybe, you know, salary or monetary value and they think that this is it and, uh, and the, and the company just doesn't, you know, the companies don't see it that way.

So you also need to understand where's your value add, where does it sit? Where is your market? Where can you, what can you do? And then, and then that's where it comes around. Um, where you can find unity or, or the common ground, shall we say, when, I mean, obviously, you know, the, you sort of rely on these sponsorships to be able to be a professional, um, when was the point for you, you know, that you realized or had a, you know, was there a realization like, okay, um, you know, I can actually make a career out of this.

Well, I was, I was very lucky. I think 20, or was it not? I graduated 2006 school and my dad said to me, look, man, I'll fund you for two years to 2008. There's Olympics. And then you're on your own. And so I was like, all right, cool. Um, so, and it will not on your own, but he's like, then if you haven't made it, he's like, you will stay in my house and you will study.

And so you can swim, but like swimming is not the main thing for you, you know? And, and so, and it was a very fair deal, right? You're going to, you're going to be 20 years old. And obviously. Um, he just couldn't find me forever. So it came around, um, 2007 came along. I got a bronze at world champs, got a little bit of money there.

And then 2008 came along, went to Olympics, made it, didn't make a final, came 11th. Um, and then we were looking quite seriously at going to do NCAAs because that's like a full scholarship paid obviously in the States. And, um, And so I was pretty much pretty close to signing a deal to go to Cal Berkeley.

And, uh, and then what happened was, um, I went to this thing called the world cup. And the World Cup is like, uh, the ATP, like kind of tennis tour, like all these stops around the world and you earn like money and there's a grand, grand prize at the end. And, um, I was in great shape at the Olympics, but, uh, I just didn't perform as well as what I could have just for various different like mental reasons.

I wasn't ready. I wasn't prepared like mentally, but physically it was on fire. And, uh, and so I took that form and I rolled it into the world cup and I, and I won the world cup and I walked away with like close to 160, 000 at the time, you know, and you're like, uh, you know, 19 years old. And so, you know, from, from that, I was like, Oh my God.

Yeah. My, my dad even turned around and was like, like you earn more than what I did in the last five years, kind of thing. So, so, uh, and obviously accepting that money means that you can't go to the NCAA because then you were professional. So that was the point where you had to decide. And, uh, you know, and I was breaking wood, right?

I broke like six world records that year, um, at this, uh, world cup. So And, and, you know, the following year that was 2008, 2009 went on to then become the world champion. Um, and so, you know, that decision was made that, you know, I was doing quite well already and, uh, I didn't need to move to the U S but that was the first obviously time that I was like, all right, then, you know, this is quite, can actually do this quite properly.

And, uh, yeah, 2009 then started getting my proper first sponsorships and so on. And how did things Sort of change, um, you know, after you have broken, for example, the world record or winning an Olympic gold, you know, was it, did your life sort of alter dramatically or? Or did things sort of, yeah. Cause I mean, as an outsider, I think you always think people look at the Olympics and they're like, Oh, it's a pinnacle of any sport.

And, you know, and it's sort of, you know, these superstars. So I think it would be interesting to know from your perspective, I think, um, life only changes for, for, in my opinion, for, uh, Olympic athletes, if you want Olympic gold. And, you know, I was World Champ 2009, 2010 Commonwealth, Double Commonwealth Champion, 2011 World Champ again.

And then, uh, and then the big one was Olympics, right? Uh, you know, come in with gold and a gold and a world record there. First, first medalist for South Africa. And, uh, you know, that year we won three gold medals. It was in the rowing, um, Chad in the 200 butterfly myself. And, uh, that was the point where everything changed.

You know, I think before I was kind of still like a local. I don't know, like micro niche celebrity, if I could kind of put it that way, or like people knew he were, but you know, so small kind of thing relative to, to then Olympics come along and you just, you know, you get home and there's like 5, 000 people at the airport waiting for you and you're on these buses, like cruising around.

And, and, um, you know, like that was really, really like the big point. And it makes sense. Cause I actually remember myself just watching. Um, the first like real memory that I have of swimming was watching Penny Haynes at the Olympics in, uh, in, uh, 2004 and all in 2000. And then like the next really big one was like watching Rake and Roland, uh, and the other guys in the relay.

And so, you know, outside of that, um, unfortunately swimming is, is a, is a bit of a, uh, uh, you can say, you know, semi professional it's, it's, it's, you know. Not, uh, not easy for a lot of guys to unfortunately sustain a living, especially the way that the current federation in a lot of countries is not only South Africa, but, you know, they're guys are paying to go to a world championships yourself, you know, like what, you know, what you can't call that a professional sport if you're paying yourself to go to a world championships.

So, um, so yeah, um, I think that's the unfortunate truth. You know, um, you can only really say that it's a professional sports once every four years. And so that is a sad thing. And so, uh, but yeah, so anyway, back to the question, obviously, is that, yeah, since that happened, then that was a big turning point for me.

And I think, um, you know, life definitely changed, you know, definitely for the better. And I was very fortunate enough and, and just like, you know, I think the coolest thing now is reflecting back on it. Um, Um, you know, me, like I was at Tokyo this year, sorry, at, uh, um, in Paris this year. And I watched Tatiana when, uh, when, when her gold medal and just seeing it, like, you know, as an, as a spectator, like appreciating it, like seeing what she did, it was like really incredible because you can appreciate them what you did as like a step removed now from that, that environment.

And um, and the amount of times that it's so great, like, you know, I get back here in South Africa and, uh, and. You know, I'll see people and they'll be like, Hey, um, you know, I've got this photo of you from like, cause you know what, I won gold and I'll say 12 years ago. And they'll be like, I've got this photo when I was this kid, you know, and it's like this little like summer, you know, and like they want to, they want to like do a then and a now, and they'll like do the next photo of it.

And then obviously the photo now, and it's just really great to see that kind of the way you're like, wow, you know, you actually, as you mentioned, like, you, you know, you inspired a couple of people to, to get in the water and you have these stories and whilst not all of them are still swimming now, but you just see that.

At that point, you meant something to them and you inspire them to do something. And, uh, and that's just like a really great feeling to have. And like, you're so privileged. Like, it's just, like I said, you know, not, um, you know. How you define your success in life should never be, you know, based on this money game that everybody thinks it is.

And, uh, it's, it should really be around the quality of your life and the lives that you've touched and how you're going to be remembered and stuff. Because like, I mean, I work in finance, you know, and I just see the craziest things. And, you know, this money game doesn't make people happy at all. There's just like never ends kind of thing.

So it's, it's interesting. Uh, you know, I feel like I've had a similar realization as well. You know, when you look at something after the fact, when you're involved, you know, when you're the athlete and you know, you, even when you won Olympics, it's like, sometimes it's hard to really appreciate what you've just done.

You know, you, I mean, obviously you're very happy at the time. It's this big goal. I feel like you, we're so driven, you know, for the next thing. And it's always okay. Uh, I want to win. You know, I want to win the world championships now. I want to win the next event. It's always and only afterwards you kind of look back and you're like, wow, like that was actually pretty cool.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's true. In the moment you don't appreciate as much than, uh, than, uh, yeah. Post fact and, uh, and, uh, Reminiscing, I guess it's a midlife, middle age thing that you're looking back on your career, but, uh, but you know, it's great to be able to do that and have the good memories and the, and the good times.

And yeah, I just think knowing it, no one, I think ever appreciate it, appreciate it enough in the moment. Yeah. That's like what I could say ever. I don't, I just like, especially that life as an athlete is like one of the most, we are. The most lucky people in the world, because like you're literally doing something that brings you the most amount of joy that people do as, as a hobby, like for fun, you're doing it as a profession.

And the unfortunate thing is sometimes it does turn into a profession and you forget that actually, this is actually like something that you love and then you start as a hobby and we are just so lucky to have loved that life. It's, uh, yeah, I think that's, it's very true. Um, and, uh, Yeah, I also think not just in sports and stuff, but you know, I often have this question about, heard this question about happiness and you know, people have different, uh, different views on what makes people happy.

Um, and I think as a, whether you're an athlete or you're someone that's starting a business or something, you know, you've got this big goal and you think, okay, when I reach this goal, then I'm going to be happy, you know, but then often, even when you do reach the goal, whether that's winning Olympic gold or making a certain amount of money or building up a student business.

Then you get there and you're, you're happy for a short time, but it's very short lived. And you're like, okay, now, now what, you know, um, and that can be sometimes difficult to deal with. Uh, and I, and I have actually seen athletes that have, um, you know, moved on to other things because they've, they've gotten to their goal and then they think, yeah, it's sort of like a bit, it's not as great as they thought it was going to be, or they, you know, they want, they want a new challenge.

Um, when, when you, uh, I mean, I, from the outside, it's very easy to look at an athlete and think, Oh, they live this perfect life. And you know, they're, they're on the cover of a magazine and, um, they're making money and they're a celebrity and it's sort of like this dream scenario, but I mean, I know, and I'm sure you know that there's a lot more.

A lot more behind the scenes than people realize. Um, and it's not as easy as they think. Um, and when you were sort of in this process of, uh, becoming you, um, was there a time where you, you know, what was your hardest moment and was there a time where you considered taking a different path? You know, I think, uh, the, the closest to that probably would have been, uh, 2014, I'd won Olympic gold and that was like my main goal and I just never set another goal.

And, uh, it was always like, all right, I was going to win Olympics. Right. I mean, like, what do you do after that? Yeah. And so it was like, Oh, I'll keep swimming and like go to the next one. And then obviously I think what had really happened to me was that I just. You know, you know, you came along with like sponsorships and fame and so on.

And then 2013 went through and it was a riot. And then 2014 I got to the Commonwealth Games and I just like, I just felt very, yeah, non motivated. I think, uh, I didn't have a clear idea of like what I was working towards. And, uh, and I ended up just being at the Commonwealth games, like just really hating it.

And, uh, I still still performed like, wow, I think I got a gold and a silver, but it was just like the most unhappy I've ever been. Um, because I just felt numb. It was like, it was just a job, you know? And then you'd, you'd lost this, like. passion, like what I'd say, like no one appreciates it as much in the moment.

Um, And so, you know, in the buildup to Olympics and so on, like it was always like, you know, you were still, you're still this kid and you had this dream and then you're working. So you still like had this kind of, you know, huge, uh, push and drive to something. And then all of a sudden, as you said, like it's accomplished and then just never had reset the goal.

And then, so you just didn't have this like driving force to do something and then you were just in the motion and just doing things and doing them because you were just doing them. Yeah. And I think that was the saddest point for me and, uh, and I took a break. Like three months off, you know, I spoke, uh, quite a bit to my sports psychologist that I'd used for 2012 and, um, yeah, and it was, I mean, it was, uh, it was definitely like touch and go whether I was like, all right, then we're gonna.

Am I going to retire, uh, or not, um, unless I could find that, that motivation and, and it was just purely a goal setting exercise, right? Just resetting. What do you want to do? You know, work to 2016 and, uh, and just, yeah, re recalibrated. And I think that was a big issue. Yeah. Not to set goals and, and, um, You know, it was a good learning process for me because, uh, you know, I, every year now religiously, like I go and I plan my year ahead and I set my goals and like small things.

And it's like, you know, I set goals now for like my kids, you know, being an ex, like, I want to do this with my kids this year, you know, like, and I want to do this with my wife this year and I want to do this professionally and I want to do that. And so I have these like things and then I'll just write them and I'll put them up on the wall.

And, uh, and, uh, and I've got like, you know, this calendar and like, I can just see like the year ticking down and so that is like a showing me like, you know, time is moving and you have these things that you need to be working towards and, and, you know, you might have a bad week, you might have a. A good week, you know, you work, but as long as you're sort of looking at it and you're driving towards something relative to just aimlessly, like moving through life, because, you know, if you ever, I'm sure if you ever done one of these like still exercises where it's like, you know, you look at how many days left in the, in on earth, you potentially have, or how many weekends left you have on earth and you just plot it out and you look at it like in like, Yeah.

Like little dots, how many you've loved and how many have left. It's like, it's fucking terrifying. It's like, Oh my God, you know? And so, you know, uh, uh, you know, or how many summers you have left or how many, you know, like how many times are you going to die, like all these silly things, how many times are you going to see your best friend again?

How many times are you going to see your parents again? And so I think when you just put everything into this perspective of like a timeline. And, uh, set it and set like goals towards that, that then just really invigorates us like drive for like life and like accomplishment. And just comes back to that conversation we had is like, when you're a kid and you do a professional sport, um, or you do a sport at a club level type thing, you're working towards goals.

You're working towards competitions. You like, you learn that skill at such a young age and, um, that just can really set you up for life. It's, uh, it's interesting. You, you. said things, uh, now, you know, regarding it being a job and, and feeling like you're just going through the motions. And I've heard that actually multiple times from various athletes, um, and including myself.

Um, so it is, I think it's an easy sort of trap to fall into. Um, even, you know, you think you look at an athlete and you think, Oh, they're. Everything's perfect. But again, it's, you know, the, with the goals, that's a very interesting, I had exactly the same experience, 2017 at my best season, but actually it was probably the most unhappy I was in my whole career, which was really weird to think.

But, um, you know, it, even when you're performing well, you just, uh, can just feel like, it's not really. You're not passionate, you know, it's just like, okay, well, I know what I need to do to perform, um, and then get the job done. And, um, but I think it's, it's, uh, it's just what that said is like you, um, when you're at the top of your game, it's like, what, what's next, what's next, what's next, you know?

And then, uh, same with trading, same with everything, you know, like. And I always have this like devil on my shoulder where it's like, as soon as things are going well, I'm like, Oh my God, it's coming. Something's coming, you know, like, you know, like don't fuck yourself. Like something's going to come for you now, you know, and, and, and like, uh, and, and so it's almost like it always Murphy's law feels like when things are there, you don't appreciate them.

Um, and I think for a lot of us, um, we expect the good times to be normal, but actually like life is not always good. Right. And so like, we expect the baseline to just be like always up there. And then when we get up there, then we're not like, Oh my God, this is amazing. We're like, Oh, this is, this should be normal.

This actually should be normal. So then you don't appreciate it. But actually like normal is. Coming with, you know, ebbs and flows of challenges and then, and then being below normal is obviously like really terrible. But, but, um, yeah, that's, it's just something that I've always thought about is, is that, uh, when we're up there, we just think that's the new normal.

So then we don't appreciate it. Then you sort of fall back to normal. And then when you're at normal, you think that's really bad and then you get depressed, you know? And so it's more about just the perspective of really appreciating when you are there, man. But how did you, um, how did you get out of that?

Like sort of, uh, feeling of, uh, of, uh, Well, to be honest, I was kind of forced out of it, I guess, because, um, very shortly, so my best season, 2017, um, and yeah, 2018, then I had my, I had a really big injury. Um, and I was, yeah, I was probably at the best point of my career. Um, but I was. actually quite unhappy, uh, just through other factors, you know, I'd, uh, had a relationship that didn't work out and, um, yeah, sponsorship wasn't going well at that point.

Um, but, um, yeah, I don't know. Uh, and then I was, then I was out for a year, um, which even though it was, was really difficult to deal with, um, it was probably the best thing for me in a way mentally, uh, because it really. Remotivated me and I had so much time, you know, when you have time off as you know, you have so much time to really contemplate and realize what's important to you.

Um, and unfortunately I came back and had another injury, another severe injury right away. So then I had a bit more time off than I, than I'd wanted to. It was like two years out. Um, but the weird thing was that. Yeah, it showed me that, you know, the real important things in your life, because before that racing was everything to me.

And, uh, you know, it's the only thing I'd already thought about. And, and I think to a degree that's similar with a lot of athletes, but then when I was forced to have that break, I realized, you know, that this is just. I love, I enjoy it, but it's just a sport and it's just, uh, it's not more important than your health, your family, um, your, your circles around, you know, it doesn't matter if you have, how many trophies you have on the, on the mantle.

If you haven't got anyone to share, to share the good times with, and there's, there's no point, you know, um, so when I, when I actually came back, um, even though. I never quite got to the point at, you know, I was at the, basically breaking into the top 20 at that point in the world, I never quite got back to that point, but I enjoyed my sport.

I enjoyed racing in my career way more the last few years than I did earlier on, even though the results maybe weren't quite. Uh, they were close, but, um, which is also sort of, I would have never thought that looking, you know, looking back or looking forward, I would have never imagined that I would have been happy with that.

Um, but I think I just learned to appreciate that this is a, you know, what we do, um, being professional athletes, it's, it's, it's a privilege and, um, you know, be able to travel the world and do what you love is ultimate. That's for me, actually, the ultimate goal was to be able to live this life. And, um, you know, everyone wants to be world champion.

Everyone wants to be the best. Unfortunately, it can only be one. And there's always someone, even if you get to that point, there's always someone else. Uh, coming up, looking to take your spot, you know, yeah, that's very true. You, uh, when you went into, uh, you know, going into the next Olympics into Rio and you got silver, right?

Yeah. Solar. And how did that, uh, how did that, you know, How happy were you with that? You know, after winning gold, uh, the previous time, you as an athlete, you always wanna win, right? And like, you, like it sucks to get silver after you've got gold. But, uh, at that day on the time, like that was the best performance I could have given.

And so, and I was like beaten, like by a decent margin, so mm-hmm . I couldn't, you know, sometimes, uh. There's a good saying where it's like you gotta be so much better in your competition that like no one can put it past you and like that guy beat me by so far that I couldn't be like, oh, but you know, I had a bad day or whatever some bullshit, you know, and so in a way it's kind of sometimes it was, it was probably in hindsight better because there was just no excuse to get, you know, like, not that you need to give excuses, but I just, you know, human nature, you always, uh, you know, think what, if, what, what about that or what could I have done better, but, you know, just, it was, it wasn't an easy season overall.

Like it was played with like a bit of overtraining, a little bit of the injury, you know, just age, just like things were not. Um, how do I say? Things didn't fall into place quite as well as they did in, in twenty four, uh, uh, uh, twenty twelve. But again, still, you know, like the fact that I went that time, considering everything, I mean, I was quite close on the time that I won in, in twenty twelve.

And so, I was very proud of that effort. And, um, yeah, you know, um, I think, like, looking back, At the time, again, you don't appreciate it, but like looking back now, you're like, Hey man, you know, you've won a golden Olympics, all of it. Like, that's pretty, pretty bad ass, you know, like, like appreciate that, you know, not many people get to do that kind of thing, you know?

And so, and also in between, you know, also like I was every year on the, you know, from 2008, from 2008, was it 2008?

No, from 2007, from 2007 at every international final that I ever swam at, I always won a medal at every final, every single final. I always, yeah, I always podium and I, and I, and only sort of fact like, like somebody, you know, one of these like crazy fans that sent that out and I was like, oh my God, like, like if I'm in the final, I'm getting a medal, like that's it, kind of thing.

And uh, the only time that I didn't was 2008 when I didn't make the final. So 2007 world champs. 2008 Olympics, didn't make the final, didn't get a medal. But then, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, uh, no, 18. Every single race I made the final, and I finaled in, in, so I was winning two medals at every major, majors, commonwealth, etc.

And so, you know, when, when I look back on it like that, again, like I said, you know, you, you, you, you know, just, I was always consistent. I was always up there. I was always doing, doing what I could. And, um, and I just. Yeah, I really like, I'm so blessed. I really look back and like, I love, you know, I just had the best time and I had the best and like, especially towards the end because I knew it was coming to an end.

I think like 2018 was one of my favorite years ever. Um, you know, I went to Commonwealth games and again, I think this is like the sad thing again, right? Because like, you know, it's coming and we had such a great community at the time, like me and the boys, I was a senior and I was really investing a lot of time on these guys.

And um, And, uh, like it was, uh, I knew like, you know, rocking up, uh, cause I was going to retire in 2018. So I was kind of focusing a lot more on the 15 or the hundred. And so when I did the hundred got a bronze and then the big thing was like the 50 for me and I was racing and a PT is like my big rival.

Right. And this guy was unbeaten since like 2016 then. And, uh, And like rocked up for the final with the boys on the bus with the music was like my little uncle. I was a little puzzy, you know, rocked up and, uh, and I beat Adam in that race and just went fucking bananas on the lane. And I was like screaming and going crazy and the guy and all the boys on the stand next to the pool, like all like taking the shirts off and like, yeah, it was like, it was crazy, like story, you know, and it's just like one of the most vivid memories that I have and, and, and it was actually like really crazy because like Adam.

At that time had come to exactly what I had gone through, um, in, uh, in 20, um, in 2014 at, uh, the Commonwealth Games and he saw me obviously beating him, but the community that I had and this like really incredible bond and experience that he didn't have. And it was like, he's, and he's like, has told us multiple times in the media, like that was his low point of his career, seeing that like being beaten a, but be feeling like super numb B and like, just feeling like, what am I doing?

Like there's no community, no nothing. And, um, and so, yeah, like those last years of my career actually was. Some of the most enjoyable, uh, just because of the community we created and that, uh, realization. And, uh, I guess, you know, as you get older, you get wiser and you pick up this, I guess it comes back to that thing of what we said is just, you know, I, I asked so many questions to so many people, um, why reinvent the wheel?

Like these guys have done it, they've been there, they've seen it. Um, and as you said, right, like you've heard so many athletes say this X, X, X, X, like we all going through the same thing, you know, at different times, um, in different kind of. Positions in our life or this, and maybe a slight iteration or this or that.

But if you just like ask the questions and listen and are able to try and learn, um, you know, there's always an, an energy to what you're going through. Somebody has been through somewhere for sure, for sure. Uh, and then, and I mean, hearing this as it's the same as what I felt like the last. I mean, last year was maybe my favorite year ever.

And that was the last year that was competing. Um, and I think it's this, you know, this perspective that you, you get and you, you kind of finally realize like how rad it is in this experience. Like, wow, this is, this is cool. Like, why did I, why was I so down on myself, you know, for coming second, you know, it's like, uh, you start to appreciate it more.

I mean, what. Obviously, you mentioned you got medals at pretty much every, um, well, every final that you made. Um, what was the, the best moment for you overall? I'm assuming 2012. Yeah, for sure. 2012, you know, childhood dream, you know, realization, Olympic champion, world record, da, da, da, da. It's just like, you know, can't beat it.

And I think, um, Yeah, it was just so special, man. It's just like really, really, really, really, really cool. Really rad. I think, uh, I am so fortunate and blessed to have been in a position because so few people are and so many things just fell into place at the right time. You know, it's like, just all like meant to be at the time and, uh, start the line and kind of thing happened.

Right. And, um, you know, I think, uh, it, uh, It shaped my life in, I mean, obviously it changed, it altered the course of my life completely, like radically, right? Um, and so that one moment, um, with so much hard work behind it, you know, kind of, you know, obviously the opportunity and everything fell into place at the right time, but you had to have done the work, but that one moment just really like is one of the pinnacle defining moments of my life, which is like comparable to, You know, having a child now or getting married to the right person or whatever.

And so not, I think not many people can realistically say that they have those moments in life where you can like pinpoint that. And that was one of those moments. And so, um, by far will always be like my favorite sporting moment. I mean, there are other moments, as I'd mentioned, like. You know, 2018, being PD with the community.

It's like, that was like, that was like really fun. So it was like a fun moment, you know, where it was like, Oh my gosh, like, this was really incredible. Like bit of a revenge, bit of like fun community kind of thing. But, but this, the 2012 was just so like life altering, you know, um, changed, like I said, the course of my life completely.

I mean, the fact that we're having this discussion is, is, is pretty much based around that. Otherwise, I don't think we probably would be having this discussion. What you touched on there, the, the, the work behind it. Um, what is the, you know, what type of, how much emphasis did you place on something like diet, for example, and, and, you know, what did your training look like, um, you know, I, I obviously not in the swimming world, so I don't know what a.

A typical, uh, training schedule would look like, um, for someone like yourself. You know, we all work hard, right? I think the thing that we just did very well was we worked very smart. And I think like I was, I was, uh, the primary, I was the first, I was actually, yeah, I was, I was the first guy that, uh, the traditional training or racing.

Um. So we say styles came from the guys were doing the 200 meters and then they'd go from the 200 meters down to the 100 meters. So it was like this huge aerobic base and like you would race the 100 and the 200 because 50 is not at the Olympic games. So that was a scene away. I started my career as a 50 meter swimmer, I was a sprinter.

And like thoroughbred sprinter pretty much and I worked my way up to the hundred. But the way that we did it was, uh, was, um, you know, with obviously quite a bit of hard work, but we, we were the first, you know, in, uh, in, in like most of these events actually to, to implement this new style where it was like, we had this extremely high speed, easy speed.

And, and, uh, was, was able to then to maintain that speed, um, on the second half of the race. You'd got the fifth. So normally as a sprinter, you got really fast and you die and then you'd like it taken over. Um, and that happened to me multiple times in my career until, uh, you know, this, uh, we, we radically changed things in 2011 where, so I'd, uh, like I said, 2008 Mr.

Final, 2009 World Champ 50 meters. Um, 2010, which is Commonwealth Games. So gold medalist in the hundred, sorry, gold medalist in the 50, uh, bronze medalist in the hundred. Then 2011 came along and I think I got, uh, two bronze, two bronzes. And it was like that, that was like, what's the moment where like, you know, listen, man, Olympics next year, there's no 50 meter, you need to change things, you know, and so we spent a lot of time thinking about it, planning about it and, and change the training to this really like intense, um, like, uh, like aerobic, like, like pretty much as much, um, trying to build up the highest lactate tolerance that you could have.

And we would do crazy things like, yeah. You know, like put a watt bike next to the pool and like sprint, like on a watt bike, as hard as you could for like 30 seconds, build up crazy lactate and then go like jump in and like, and then 25 meters. And the idea is like on a watt bike, you obviously have a lot of resistance, right?

So you like have this huge buildup of, um, of, of lactate, and then teaching your body then to swim or keep moving. Whilst you had this huge lactate buildup. And so we did a lot of this type of stuff. Um, you know, uh, where people were not doing it before. And you, you, you know, I still would remember like Tatiana, like her coach, this guy Rocco, he watched us on the side of the pool deck and be like, what are these monkeys doing?

You know, like kind of thing, like, you know, cause they were, they're really like long distance. Tatiana is a tournament, you know, like that's their style, you know? And so these guys were like, what are these guys doing? You know? And, uh, we were realistically a lot of, like I said, a lot of resistance training, a lot of the German, et cetera.

And, um, yeah, and I mean, I went out there and, uh, and I just crushed the field because like, I just so fast out and I held the pace back. And, uh, and, uh, and that was like, I really think it was a huge shift in our, um, sport. Um, and now you don't find any guys that are winning the 200 win 100. It's always like the, the, the, the inverse.

So like 50 up to the 100, just because We have so much speed and we've just learned how to maintain that speed. And so, um, the sport definitely changed from there, but that, uh, hard work was also the funnest times. I mean, I'm now 36 and I, I, you know, like go to gym and I remember how much lactate I could produce and I could just hold it.

And like, you'd get out of the pool and your legs were swollen. I'm like lactate. And like, man, I can barely produce it now. I'm like, so old, you know, kind of thing. It's like, um, so, you know, you, you, you like, you know, I used to love it because you used to like. It was like, it was like the idea was like, I would, you know, we would, you know, getting, I would sort of train so hard that with my training partners, like I'd get out of the pool and I, you know, like, I'd just like crush them, crush them, like try and destroy their soul kind of thing.

And then I'd like get out the pool and, and just be like, pointed, you pointed them and be like, yeah, like, you know, like, come on, like, let's go. What's wrong with you? What's wrong with you kind of thing. And so it was just like a mixture of like community. Great training partners, like pretty much psycho, like we were psycho, like crazy training and stuff, but you got to be, I really firmly believe that, you know, you got to be on the fringe.

That's what I say. Everyone's talented. Like we're all talented, everyone's doing things, but you just, and you only have a certain, again, like you only have a certain amount of time in the day and a certain amount of like units of. Energy and et cetera, right. That you can expel, like you can only train so hard.

Um, and so, but how do you use that in the most intelligent way? And I think we were really pioneers in that. And, uh, and so, yeah, I mean, it was, it was like fun, fun, fun time. That's awesome. I'll keep that in mind for anyone who wants to be a swimmer. It's on them. You're on the what bike. Yeah, no, that's a problem.

People don't want to do it anymore. They don't want to do that. So it's too hard. How much, uh, I mean. In terms of volume, how much volume are you doing every week? Um, I probably do about 60 kilometers a week, somewhere around 60, 70 kilometers a week. I mean, yeah, maybe in the, in the beginning of the season, towards the end of the season, maybe like 50 Ks, but it was like more intense.

Three gym sessions a week, um, a running session on the weekend. So I do like a sprint run session on the track. Interesting. Um, just again, like this, you know, sort of transition of like fast switch fiber into something where there's a little bit more resistance. Mm-hmm . Um, I mean if you ever wanna see a really funny thing, you watch a whole bunch of, um, swimmers sprinting down the track, like looking like Donald Duck, it's like pretty funny, but, uh, but it's great.

And, um, and so yeah, um, you know, and, and just comparable again, right? Like the, you know, the, the model back in the day was like, Oh, you had to do like 80 kilometers a week kind of thing, 80 to a hundred. So guys were doing, you know, guys doing like 16 kilometers a day. I was doing like maybe 10 to 12 at max.

Right. And so this is why it was, uh. Quite radically different at the time. And something like, what about something like, uh, diet, you know, were there any things that you, you know, these days I feel like it's such a hot topic, you know, all these different things and what's going to make you better, whether it's keto or carnivore or vegan or what?

Yeah, I think I, I experimented a lot. Um, and, and I just figured out quite, I mean, I, when I look back on it, I followed quite a Mediterranean diet. Um, yeah, not purely, not, I wouldn't say it's strictly keto, but yes, I did cut out a lot of like pasta bread. Yeah, these are kind of heavy, you know, heavy carbohydrate like wheaty, uh, carbs make me quite bloated and, uh, drops my blood sugar level.

So I get quite tired. So it was a lot to do with obviously thinking about it, but also The diet, I think, I mean, I remember going to dietitians and them telling you like, you know, Oh, you've got to eat 5, 000 calories a day and pasta and this and this and this and so I tried that didn't work for me at all.

And, and it was just experimentation of, um, having a good structure of knowing and knowing. You know, when you have your heart sessions, when you have easy sessions, like kind of a rough calorific intake, but what are the foods that, you know, for me, like I, um, digest, uh, quite easy, like, like, you know, sort of fats.

Yeah. And that's a lot of avocados, not seeds, you know, peanut butter, bananas, um, fish, chicken, obviously I'd, I'd limit when I was really training hard, I'd limit my red meat. Intake to once a week, uh, just because it would take a long time for you to break that down in your body. So your red blood cells or your blood.

So every time you eat, right, you blood rushes to your stomach to, to break down, um, the food in your stomach. Right. And so like fish and chicken, white meat, uh, you know, it takes like 25 percent of the time of red meat. And so for instance, if you knew that you were. You were, uh, doing a heart session tomorrow.

I wouldn't take meat at night because it would take four times as long. And in that process, then like, once your food is digested, your blood could be rather, um, repairing your muscles. And so, you know, um, this is kind of the, the, the, the, the frameworks that we were looking at more back then. Um, you know, and then red meat, maybe on a Saturday or something like that.

So like, like a bride obviously end of the week. Yeah, that's interesting. Um, I wasn't, uh, yeah, it makes sense. Uh, with the red, red, with the red meat side, um, but she's now there's, I don't know, I feel like it's, uh, it's quite difficult for the average person now because they, you know, they look at social media and then every second person is telling them they need to do this and they need to do that and then need to, one thing meat is bad.

The next one's saying plants are bad. The next one, like, it's just like, you know, it's very true. In terms of the mental side as well, uh, you mentioned you had a, um, uh, psychologist that you worked with as well. Um, was that, did you have that your whole career? No. Um, that was something that we, that I looked at, uh, post 20, uh, 2008.

So 2008, you know, got to the Olympics, great condition and, um, just got way too excited. Couldn't put it together. So heats came in fourth, semis, uh, uh, finished like nine. And that time from the heats would have won me a medal. But I just, I couldn't, like, I got way too excited, um, didn't sleep, you know, trying to think of what, you know, trying to get the step ahead, like thinking of the middle before you've done the semifinal.

And, uh, and so then, you know, started working with someone just how to control those because, you know, that's such a. Energy drainer thinking about that. It gets you nervous. It makes you, you know, you, you, you don't think straight. Uh, and, and it's something, you know, that I've also now using in, uh, in finance.

I like trading when you, you know, when you've got a huge trade on and the trades are going against you and it's not doing well, you know, you, uh, you know, you, uh, quite easy for your emotions to get. The bed of your logic. And so, you know, just certain different sort of techniques that I've learned in order to regain myself from not thinking too far ahead, just thinking about the moment, how, what can you control right now, you know, trying to be in the right phase of mind, save, conserve energy, you know, and so that you, when the big moment comes.

that you have the energy and that you haven't expended the energy on nervous energy thinking about these other things. And so, and also just again, like expectation of, um, you know, when you're going to get, you're going to get there, you're going to get to the semifinal, you're going to be ranked maybe first, you're going to be the favorite for the final.

Like, how do we, how do we respond to that? How do we respond to, um, you know, pressure from media? How do you respond for a push from your family? You know, cause you have people saying, Oh, you're going to win tomorrow. You're going to bring it home for us, get gold, get gold. But as soon as you start thinking about it, you think about.

The outcome relative to the process, what can you control? And so just, you know, you always got to try and take yourself back. And so that was really, um, valuable, uh, to, to invest in. How did, uh, you know, obviously you, you got married a few years ago and now you got, you know, you got a little one as well.

And I don't, you just got one, right? Or have you got two? Two. Two. I got two. Um, how did, you know, how did that, I know for me personally, just being, you know, as I mentioned earlier that I've gotten married recently, uh, I found that it, you know, having a relationship actually helped me in general also with my career.

Um, maybe just giving a sense of peace and you've obviously got something. That's giving you a lot of joy. Um, how did, how did that, you know, how did having a family and getting married sort of affect you and your, and your, yeah, the later parts of your career? You know, I, uh, I got married only in 2018 and so, and then I retired.

So, uh, just kind of, but, uh, you know, I'd been with her for, whoa, for like five years prior. And, uh, you know, it's, uh, it's, you know, it's very important who you choose to let into your circle and, you know, she was the right. This is the right person for you. Um, you know, it can be majorly beneficial if it's the wrong person.

You know, the most important decision you probably do make in your life is who you marry, like realistically. Um, cause that, you know, whilst we are young, you know, up until you're 30 years old, you're, you're, you know, you're protected by your family and you do your, your thing and your decisions of by yourself.

When you're making a commitment to get married, you know, that's kind of a commitment for the next like 50 years of your life in the prime kind of decision making family, kids, where you're going to live, what you're going to do. And so, uh, marrying the right person is the most important thing. And that sets you up.

And like, I've just been very lucky in life, like lucky in life, man, like married the right girls, most amazing person, most amazing mother, you know, lucky in sports, been lucky in business, you know, it's just like, I just find myself super lucky. It's just, you Yeah, I mean, uh, can't complain for a second on, on these type of things and yeah, she's just been, been, been, uh, like such a rock in the family, man.

So, yeah. What's the next on the cards, uh, for you in the next, uh, coming years? So, um, yeah, I mean, to wrap up, unfortunately I've got to shoot now, but, uh, I, uh, big, the big next thing for us is, um, you know, we've been in London for six years. And, uh, and, um, you know, the, the, the opportunity set has actually come up now from, from the business to move to Dubai.

So we're going to be relocating to, uh, to Dubai. So very welcome move for, for various different reasons, but, uh, you know, the heat obviously in the sun is, uh, is, uh, really sorely missed by me. And, you know, I love living in outdoors and active lifestyle and London, unfortunately is not as conducive to that, um, where whilst Dubai in the, In the summer is extremely hot and you can't go outdoors, but then most people like, you know, will leave.

So my wife is, uh, she's Greek as well. So, uh, so we normally go to Greece. Um, so, uh, you know, kids are going to be based there. And then, uh, the rest of the year, it's an amazing place. A lot of expats there, a lot of South Africans and, um, yeah, really great work opportunity. And, uh, and the bonus is that it's There's five flights home to South Africa, uh, every single day and the flights are quite cheap.

So, you know, I can get in and out of here quite easily, not related to London and the kids are a bit older. They're quite, they're quite a bit easier to fly with now. So, um, so we're very excited for that. And, uh, yeah, that's the next big thing for us. So we're looking forward to that. I know, I know you've got to shoot, uh, just got one, one last question for you, uh, which I ask every guest is, um, what is your definition of success?

My definition of success is, um, waking up and having the drive to do something like that you love every day and like feeling like you just. You want to live for every day that is successful for me, because, you know, again, that means you're not constrained by you're not a slave to, to like money or, or some ideology that you think that you wanted to live, but you actually don't want to live kind of thing.

If you get up every day and you have this burning desire to love the day to go, you know, like. Get up, love going to gym, got the time to go to gym, go to gym, you know, then come home, go to, go to, you know, go to work, spend time with your family, go do something like that. But like, if you like, just like live for that, live for those days, I think that's like a definition of success for me, because like I said, life is so flipping short, man.

And if you just like. Blink, you're going to miss it. I mean, I'm already 36 and I feel like I'm ancient and I just want to like really ensure that But yeah, like your time is well spent, you know on this on this earth. It's so so quick So, you know definition is is by by default You're obviously doing the right thing because you have passion for life and I think that's the most important thing Yeah, yeah forget about like get about the money and all this stupid stuff like saying it's just like Doesn't mean anything man as long as you With good people, and you're loving where you're on, you're loving what you're doing, like, you're successful, you're happy, man.

Couldn't agree more. Cam, uh, dude, this has been amazing. Thanks, uh, so much for, for, uh, fitting us in. Thanks, bud. I really appreciate it, Stefan. Good luck with everything. Yeah, and you. If you guys enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe. And to see more episodes, click the link right up here. That was iconic.