Dr. Anthony Chaffee, thanks very much for coming on. You go back to eating what humans were eating during an ice age in the Arctic Circle, and all of a sudden people's health issues are going away. Their diabetes goes away, their autoimmunity goes away. All these sorts of things are massively improving people's health.

It is mind blowing. Meat is good for you, it gives you all the things you need. Dr. Anthony Chaffee is an American medical doctor and neurosurgical registrar in Australia. Who, over a span of 20 plus years, has researched the optimal nutrition for human performance and health. So we are literally made out of cholesterol.

Our hormones are made out of cholesterol. Our brain is largely made out of cholesterol. Every cell in our body is made out of cholesterol. How is it that cholesterol is somehow bad for us? My LDL is 177. That means you're going to live longer, right? Studies show the higher LDL means you live longer. You have to have mushrooms because it has anti VEGF and that's an anti carcinogen.

It's good against cancer. And I was like, yeah, but it has carcinogens in it. And also I don't have cancer. So why am I taking anti VEGF, which is a chemotherapy agent? What would your sort of shotgun approach for people that on a typical Western diet with a lot of processed food, what would their steps be?

So my role for myself and anybody who wants to do this as I think is as well as they can is

Dr. Anthony Chafee. Thanks very much for coming on. Really appreciate it. Um, I wanted to start off, uh, you know, with saying that when we're young, uh, we, we hear from, you know, Pretty much everyone, our parents, everyone tells us we've got to eat our vegetables to grow up strong and healthy. Um, but, uh, you famously say that plants are trying to kill us.

Um, so, uh, yeah, why is that? Just being slightly facetious, I mean, it's really a quote that I took from my own professor of cancer biology when I was doing my undergraduate degree. And he was trying to relay a point. Upon us that plants are living organisms and they like to stay living organisms. And so they have a series of defenses that are chemical in nature.

So all living things have a defense. Otherwise they, they would have gone extinct by now. And if they're more as robust a defense as they needed. So while animals can run away and fight back, plants can't. And so they have chemical deterrence as their, as their main weapon. So we have catalog counted and named, um, Nearly 1, 000, 000 defense chemicals that plants make that can be directly toxic.

They can be disruptive to our physiology. They can disrupt our hormones. They can cause other sorts of impairments. They can disrupt the digestion and absorption of other nutrients and, and so on and so on and so on. So there, there are quite a lot of, of robust defenses that, that, Plants have now a plant is trying to kill you in the same regard as as a moose or a bison is trying to kill you.

It's not that it's hunting you and it, and it wants you dead. It's just that you get too close to a bison or a moose and it feels threatened. It will take you out because it's kill or be killed in the wild. Plants as well as animals. And so if you threaten that plant, it is more than happy for you to die.

If it gets to live and people say, well, they don't necessarily have a conscious choice in this matter. Not necessarily the case. You know, more and more botanists are coming out now saying that plants are actually quite sentient and they have a nervous system that relays and responds to our injuries and attacks and different sorts of stimuli.

Very similar to our central nervous system. So they don't have a centralized nervous system or a brain, but their entire body acts like a central nervous system. So they don't have a brain. They act like a brain. They have receptors on their, on the surface of their bodies that are the same protein photoreceptors that we have on the back of our retina that recognize different frequencies of light so that while they don't have eyes, they can They are eyes and they can actually see around them.

They speak to each other. They communicate through their roots, through vibrations, through chemical signals that sent through the air. And, um, they're actually quite sophisticated in a lot of ways. In fact, some botanists are saying that they display features that denote personhood. And individuality, which is, yeah, which is pretty remarkable.

So these, these plants are like every other living thing and they, they have to defend themselves and they have to defend themselves in robust nature. You think about this way, latex, we use latex gloves and medicine all the time. Latex is, and a lot of things we use in medicine are from plants. A lot of them are toxins that we find.

You know, it was helpful in certain cases, you know, penicillin. That's a, that's a toxin that's made from mold that kills bacterias, right? So there's, there's, there's this constant war in nature and we use that to our advantage in certain circumstances. So latex is actually a sap that's, that's secreted from certain plants.

And it's when they're sort of crushed and chewed that they start releasing this really thick, sticky sap with latex in it. And. What happens is when the animal is eating that plant and it releases all this latex, it actually glues their mouth shut. And so, you know, it's a pretty elegant way to stop something from eating you is gluing its mouth shut.

The reality is, is that that animal typically can't get his mouth unglued. And so they die and they starve slowly to death over the course of the next couple of weeks, or they get taken out by something else. So the plant really has no problem with you dying if it gets to live. And there are, in fact, the majority of plants on earth will kill you.

If you eat them, even in small quantities, and there are some plants that if you just get too close to them and breathe in the chemicals that they're exuding in a defensive nature around them, you can die just from inhaling the chemicals that they, that they exude. There's a, there's a garden in England and, um, you know, on the gates, it says, you know, beware, you know, these plants can kill.

And, um, there are plants. You know, of that nature that you get too close to them and disturb them and they can actually kill you. And in fact, they're, I think one of their heads groundskeepers actually did die, maybe a couple other people who work there have died as well, by getting too close to these plants and breathing in their fumes.

So, you know, it's, it's not that they're actively hunting us and trying to kill us, but they are just, they're trying to defend themselves just like everything else. And if that means that you have to die so they get to live, so be it. They're more than happy to do it. Just like if you get too close to a moose, it will stomp you out because it's not trying to eat you, but it's trying to make sure that you don't eat it.

That's incredible. It's quite incredible actually, because I think that's not, uh, what the majority of people think when they, they think of plants as a, I mean, it, it is living, but they don't really think of it the same way they would think of an animal. You know? Yeah, no, they don't. But, you know, we, we, for a long time, didn't think that animals felt pain and that we could abuse them and do anything we wanted to them because, you know, they didn't, they didn't feel pain like we did.

So, you know, it didn't count, you know, you could be nasty and horrible to them. Obviously that's not, not the case. You know, they, just because they can't scream out in English, Hey, that hurts. You can still see them yelling and screaming. Plants yell and scream in a different way, but they do yell. And in fact, there's their papers that have been published that are just called, you know, plants scream, you know, and they, so it's, uh, they can send out, scream out chemical signals, screaming to other plants that they're being attacked, that they're being killed and to defend themselves, like, Hey, we're being attacked.

Defend yourselves, they send signals to their roots, to other plants. They send vibrational signals to other plants and those other plants around them start responding and start upregulating more and more toxins. So this is, this is a good reason why people will tend to, well, it's the folk wisdom you may have been taught by your mother, parent, or something like that, that when you're looking for produce, if it has like.

Signs of like an insect biting it or burrowing in, you know, even if that insect is gone. I mean, it, you use, Oh, you don't eat that one. That one's bad. Well, why is it bad? Is there bacteria on it? Is it infected? No. What it is, is that insect started eating that and the plant started defending itself, started making more and more toxins to drive that away.

And that's why it didn't get completely eaten. Just had a chunk of it bitten out. And then it got too toxic and it started tasting horrible. And so the bug took off and went somewhere else. That means that that's upregulated a lot of those toxins. And so that can be more harmful if you eat something that has a blemish or has, you know, like fungus started attacking it or something like that as well.

So it's not, you know, the information is out there. It's just, you know, how, how we're gathering this information is, is generally through hearsay and propaganda. It's plants are great for you. Meat's going to kill you. Saturated fat is going to give you a heart attack. And so you have to eat anything else by definition is therefore good for you as long as it doesn't have saturated.

That and it's not from an animal. And that's sort of what's been going on for the last 40 years. And it's just complete rubbish, you know? I mean, just because something is, you know, is, is something different if you're, if you're calling one, you know, one thing bad for you being something else doesn't necessarily make it good for you just means it's not that one thing.

So even if something didn't contain saturated fat, if saturated fat were bad for you, which it is not. just because something you didn't have saturated fat doesn't mean it's de facto good for you, but that is exactly the argument that was made. And so these plants didn't fruits and vegetables didn't have saturated fat.

And so then they said, okay, yeah, they're all good for you. The only thing people started avoiding was, was saturated fat. So, you know, it's. It's not an education, like that's not what botany teaches us. That's not what biology teaches us. That's not what the hard sciences show. The hard sciences show that plants and animals are in an evolutionary arms race.

Plants becoming more and more toxic. So less and less animals can eat them so they can survive and thrive. And animals becoming more and more adapted to specific toxins and specific plants so they can eat that plant and survive and thrive. And this is why out of the 400, 000 plants in the world, most of them will kill you.

And in fact, most plants will kill most animals, even herbivores, because herbivores have to be specially adapted to the plants that they eat as well. And so while a koala eats eucalyptus and almost nothing else is eucalyptus because they're so toxic, koalas don't need anything else. Because those other things would be toxic to a koala.

And so we eat avocados and grapes, but avocados and grapes will kill cats and dogs because they have less defenses towards the toxins in grapes and avocados, and obviously they, grapes and avocados do have toxins or else it wouldn't kill dogs and cats. Chocolate. Same thing, you know, that, that can be toxic to, to dogs at certain levels.

You know, there's, and there's reasons for that. It disrupts her physiology in certain ways that, that will result in death. And we forget this fact and we forget the fact that these things have toxins. And that we have not been exposed to these toxins for really more than 10, 000 years in any meaningful way.

And that more, um, you know, native populations that have more recently turned to a post agricultural way of eating in the last 100, 150 years, like Native Americans, the indigenous, indigenous Australians, um, several populations of sub Saharan Africa, um, et cetera, you know, the Inuit. That these, these peoples were largely hunter gatherers, mostly hunters.

They gathered if the hunt wasn't successful and if they could get meat, they ate meat is plants were a backup, a sort of a, uh, a starvation of food. Um, and if they had to, by and large, and now they're, you know, as a post agricultural society, they get far more sick than people of, of Western descent. Who have been exposed to agriculture for 10, 000 years or so.

And that's really telling, you know, we've had, you know, Europeans and others have had about 10, 000 years to be exposed to these plant toxins and start to try to get a bit of a defense against them. But these other native populations that came more recently to. A post agricultural way of eating a Western society, a Western diet, which in agro in anthropology, they talked about specifically when you come from a pre agricultural society, it's how to gather a population.

Basically you're, you're dealing with injuries and infectious disease. And they live just as long, if not longer than the rest of us. It's just that infant mortality rates high. So the average life expectancy is lower, but how long people live. Before they die of old age is as long or longer than people in the West.

And they don't get these chronic diseases, but when they move to civilized, so called society, these post agricultural societies, Western societies, all of a sudden there's a massive shift. In what they, they get afflicted with, and it's now not predominantly infectious disease and injuries. Like it would have mostly been in the 17 and 18 hundreds for us, but it's chronic disease.

That's the major burden of disease. And that's the major burden of disease around the world. 90 percent of deaths in the Western world are from chronic diseases. 74 percent of deaths around the world are from chronic diseases. So this is, um, you know, this is a major, major issue. And I think that it is very clear that this is nearly exclusively caused.

By eating a species inappropriate diet, a biologically inappropriate diet. We need to go back to what certainly get getting rid of processed food. But even before processed food, people were still getting these, these, uh, you know, different sorts of diseases at much, much lower rates. And he called them diseases of the West because only Westerners got them.

Only people in post agricultural societies got them. But then when pre agricultural societies like the native Americans, et cetera, shifted to a post agricultural society. Then they all started getting them and at much higher rates. So I think that's, that's very cut and dry. And then when you move back and you start eating to our biological design, the way that humans have been eating since humans have been humans, you know, humans have been apex predators.

For at least 2 million years, if not longer, we have very clear evidence that humans have been thriving in the Arctic circle during the ice ages at a time when the great Plains in America, in North America were under a mile high block of ice, and you're talking about 2000 miles North of that, what exactly is there to eat besides animals, right?

I mean, nothing's growing, you're not growing wheat, you know, we only turned agriculture about 10, 000 years ago. And we know that because. We only started producing things like amylase, which is a enzyme that breaks down plant starches. Into a constituent glucose molecules that only hit the genome about 10, 000 years ago.

It's very, very recent. And then these agricultural societies that spread very widely, but not in the other societies that did not go to agriculture at that time. And then as population has shifted to agriculture, they, they started picking up this, this, um, uh, trait for, um, production of amylase. So. It's that's very clear to me.

You, you go back to eating what humans were eating during an ice age in the Arctic circle, and all of a sudden people's health issues are going away. Their diabetes goes away. Their autoimmunity goes away and heart hypertension, high blood pressure starts going away. Start putting on muscle. They lose fat, their Alzheimer's starts to improve, or they never form it in the first place.

All these sorts of things are massively improving people's health. And it's, and it's such a simple thing. And we see this cause and effect relationship when people are eating the way humans have always been eating or even close to that, they don't get these diseases and then they shift to a post agricultural modern society way of eating and they get these diseases of civilization as described in anthropology textbooks, and then you go back and eat.

You know, a traditional way, it goes away for all populations. So, to me, it's probably one of the most obvious things that, that exists on this earth. It's, it is crazy to me with, with diet that it's seen as healthy to, to have all this processed food and, um, you know, now there's this, this movement that meat is bad and, you know, plant based diet and this and that.

And it's fine to have a processed burger that tastes, tastes like beef, but it's nothing to do with beef. Now that is considered healthy, but to have a steak is not. And it's just like, mind boggling to me that, that people believe this. Um, and if you think about, as you said, like thinking about what our ancestors must've eaten, surely that must be the The best way to eat.

I mean, people, animals don't get, unless they're our pets, animals don't get diabetes and, uh, and things like that. They know what to do. You know, people were born with the right sort of instincts, but we've, we've messed that up over the last, uh, you know, the most, uh, however many hundred years, you know?

Well, and you know, and that, and that's a great point too, because it's our domesticated pets. They're, they get the exact same diseases that we get. The only animals on earth that get these, these diseases are humans and the animals that eat human food. Right. And in fact, vets now are saying that there's this massive increase in the rates of so called human diseases, which are just the diseases of civilization in the pet populations.

And of course that only happens when you feed them kibble. And other sorts of man made foods instead of just feeding them what they're supposed to eat, you know, dogs and cats are known carnivores and we're giving them grain and plant based kibble because it makes these companies a lot of money, you know, we worry about processed foods, but then we don't realize that.

Pet food, dog and cat food is largely owned by the processed food manufacturers like Mars, like Mars bars. They make dog and cat food and they call it like, you know, sexy names like, Ooh, science diet. Ooh, science told us, you know, put this exactly what you eat. You know, science tells us that dogs should eat meat.

Science tells us that cats have to eat meat, you know, so this is, this is, um, you know, it's marketing, you know, they're saying, they're calling it science. Like, Ooh, this is the best bone with meat on it. That's the best, you know, and that's obvious, you know, an animal that they just caught and are eating, that is the best, obviously, you know, you can't mimic that with grains and plants because a, they don't have the same nutrition and B, they have a lot of toxic elements that cause harm.

That's all there is to it. Wolves in the wild, when eating their natural diet, are in ketosis. They do not eat carbohydrates. Lions in the wild are in ketosis. They have tested this. And, and of course they would be. They're not eating carbohydrates or getting fat and protein. So why would we think putting a dog or a cat on a heavily carbohydrate rich diet, spiking their insulin and taking them out of ketosis, Would be a good idea.

Obviously it's, uh, it's, it's very unlikely to do that. There's an immutable law in biology is that of adaptation. What a species has been adapting to and exposed to the longest is what is they are best equipped to deal with. And humans have been eating meat for literally millions of years, multiple millions of years.

We've been apex predators for over 2 million years. That's what all the best evidence. shows and apex predators by definition are carnivores. And then you look at felines and canines and they've been carnivores for far longer than that. And we're saying, no, this plant, AKA weed or corn or soy, that is a human construction that did not exist in nature, um, before we, uh, read it and created it.

No, that that's the ideal food stuff for, for all of the above. That doesn't make any sense. We haven't been adapting to this at all for any length of time. And you know, 10, 000 years is a blink of the eye in, in regards to. Just human existence. You know, if we're talking about the entire existence of, of the human species, it's, it's literally just a fraction of, of our existence.

You know, there's, it was some sort of analogy. Someone said, you had an entire like football field, a hundred meter field, and, and, you know, And that was all of human existence. We would have been eating meat all the way up until like, you know, the last, you know, centimeter and that's agriculture. And now it's like, it's like two blades of grass.

I'm like, that's it. That's the only time we've actually been eating plants. The rest of the time we've just been eating meat. So, you know, we're heavily adapted to eating meat. We know that that's not harmful. There are no toxic elements in meat. The saturated fat does not cause heart disease. That is a pure con.

Because that was, you know, that was, um, pushed by the, you know, the, mostly the sugar manufacturers and processed food companies and potentially the tobacco companies as well, who then bought up most of these, uh, food companies in the eighties. They pushed that because they needed to protect their own investment in their processed food and garbage that they were selling Because that was very likely to be the cause of cardiovascular disease So they needed to pick a scapegoat and they just dumped money behind it and paid off some of the most prominent professors and researchers in the world from Harvard and elsewhere to lie and say this stuff and one of those professors was named head of the USDA and he was You know, he, he was the one who authored and published the USDA declaration in the late 70s saying that cholesterol causes heart disease, saturated fat creates cholesterol, stop eating both, this is going to kill you.

And we still listen to this nonsense, even though it goes, it's in direct contravention of the published data and evidence. So much so that the, uh, the U. S. dietary guidelines and recommendations in 2015 were actually changed and they removed. The recommendation to limit the amount of dietary saturated fat and cholesterol.

Because as they said, there's absolutely no evidence that, um, dietary cholesterol or saturated fat, any effect on your serum blood levels of cholesterol and has absolutely no impact. on the development of cardiovascular disease. So I said, this, this is a non issue anymore, and we shouldn't be worrying about it.

They, they, you know, they removed this as a, um, you know, a substance of concern in, uh, in the diet, you know, and yet people are still, a decade later, Screaming this from the rooftops, all limit your saturated fat to less than 10%. Well, you know, if you want to go more than that, because, you know, just, you know, recommendations are just, you know, it's, it's just expert opinion.

That's the lowest tier on the evidence hierarchy. Okay. Well, let's go to the very top. The tippy top of that pyramid is an umbrella review. So you have randomized high quality, randomized control trials, because you can have poor quality, randomized control trials, but high quality randomized control trials.

And that can tell you something. And then you make a meta analysis of those, those high quality randomized controlled trials. And that gives you even stronger evidence. But then when you amass enough meta analyses of high quality randomized controlled trials, you can actually do a meta analysis of those meta analyses.

And that's called an umbrella review. So what the journal, American College of Cardiology published in 2020, a meta analysis. of meta analyses of all the randomized controlled trials looking at the connection between dietary saturated fat and cardiovascular disease. And they found absolutely no relationship whatsoever between the intake of saturated fat and cardiovascular disease.

But in fact, they found an inverse relationship between saturated fat intake and strokes. So people that ate more saturated fat actually had less strokes. And people ate less saturated fat actually had more strokes. And yet we are still trying to tell people that saturated fat, you have to avoid it. This is so bad for you.

This is absolutely against the available evidence at the highest level. Of evidence. This is not opinion. This is not conjecture. This is a fact And when you look back at the original vilification of saturated fat cholesterol You actually see that it was a complete con and a fraud and we have hard evidence of that as well published in the journal american medical association 2016 when they published actual internal memos from the sugar companies Detailing how they paid off professors from harvard and elsewhere to falsify data and publish fraudulent studies and how one of those professors Became head of the usda Okay So that's where I got that.

I got that from one of the top medical journals in the world. This is published literature. This is not conjecture. This is not an accusation. This is a matter of historical record. They made it up. They lied and it has been substantially disproven since then. And it needs to go away and die. I want to, I want to dig, uh, Definitely dig much deeper into that.

But before we do just to come back to you for a second, maybe you could tell, tell the audience a little bit more about who you are and, uh, you know, how, what led you onto this sort of journey of, of health and nutrition, because, uh, you know, your main focus for you was the brain. Um, and so what sort of led you into this direction?

Yeah, I'm a medical doctor and I have a private practice here in Australia, although I'm from. America. Um, I've been specializing in neurosurgery as a, as a registrar here and, um, but also I have a private practice in metabolic health, preventative medicine and just health optimization, you know, using lifestyle and dietary and lifestyle interventions to try to get people as healthy as possible.

And we are just seeing. Massive improvements in people's health, um, so much so that I mean, I can't, I can't not do this, you know, I, it's not, I don't think it would be ethical for me to, to stop because I just, I just see it helping so many people in so many profound ways. What got me into this? Well, initially, like I said, I had a professor of cancer biology who.

Told us how toxic plants were and how they were very carcinogenic and said to us that he didn't eat salads or vegetables and wouldn't let his kids eat vegetables because in his words, plants are trying to kill you. So the, the, the, what was left hanging there was that, well, why the hell would you eat these things?

Like they're toxic. They're trying to kill you. What's wrong with you. And so I stopped at that point. And I, I. Just went to the grocery store. I'm like, well, what, what in God's name do I eat? And I just was walking around. I was like, everything's has plants in it. I mean, that was my only, my only standard was just like, can't have plants.

That's the only thing I cared about. And so it was just everything I was walking through, everything had plants in it. And I just walked by some eggs and meat and I was like, okay, eggs and meat it is. And that's what I ate for five years. I've never felt better, felt absolutely amazing. I was worried about, you know, vitamin deficiencies.

I remember thinking, I was like, Oh, do I need to like take a multivitamin or take a eat a banana or something? And I was just like, well, yeah, I mean, I feel good. My gums aren't bleeding. So, you know, I'm just going to ride this out. That was an actual conversation I had in my head verbatim. I was like, what do I do?

I was like, all right, let's, let's, let's ride this out. See what happens. And, and I felt amazing. I just felt better and better as I went, there wasn't any issues. And, you know, you, you sort of slip off these things because, you know, you just get inundated with, Oh, you know, but you need this, you need that.

And this research, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, yeah, I don't know, you know, because it has these. toxins and carcinogens, like, you know, Oh, but you have to have mushrooms because it has anti VEGF and that's an anti carcinogen and it's good against cancer. And I was like, yeah, but it has carcinogens in it.

You know, like, well, why are you, why are you taking, and also I don't have cancer, so why am I taking anti VEGF, which is a, it was a chemotherapy agent. So like, why, why would I be taking chemo if I'm not on, if I don't have cancer, it doesn't make sense because you wouldn't just take any other chemo drugs because they would hurt you.

That would cause a lot of harm and they have carcinogens. I was like, that doesn't really make sense, but I was just like, Oh, I don't know, and you just go along with these things because you just have, it's coming from so many directions. You're like, Oh, okay, I guess. And I'd never felt as good. As I did during those five years.

And I never, I never knew why I didn't, didn't chalk it up to that. I didn't see that, um, at the time it wasn't for several years later, actually 12 years later that I came back to this and realized that no humans just really are carnivores as a species. We've been apex predators for millions of years. I learned that in second grade and that's what I was doing.

I was living as a carnivore. I was living to our biological design. And that's when that I've never felt. Better in my entire life during that period. And so I said, that's what I was doing. I've never been able to figure it out. That's what it was. I just chalked it up to age. I just, you know, at 25, I felt like a superhero at 25 and a half.

I did not. And I couldn't figure out what happened. And then I did at 38 finally, but I guess better late than never. And I, I just, so you'd gone back to, you'd gone back to, um, non non carnival at that point. Yeah, I, I sort of, I just sort of went back to just mostly eating meat because that was always what I preferred anyway.

And, and, but just adding in some salads, you know, salads or veggies or, or something like that. Never really ate much fruit, you know, you know, a bit here and there, but, uh, yeah, mostly like salads and. And me, I wasn't really a big bread guy every now and then if it was like easy, like when I was studying for the MCATs, it was just easy to get a whole bunch of like whole wheat pasta and then I just boil it up real quick and have a whole big thing of pasta and just eat that real quick and then, you know, study for the afternoon.

And I, I never really realized it, but I, I would, I would pass out like a couple hours later, I would just get exhausted and I passed out on the couch and sleep for two hours and then wake up and keep studying. And like, you know, that was, that was this, um, you know, this carb coma. That I would go into after a pasta, you know, uh, because you, you actually get that because you eat these carbohydrates.

Carbohydrates at past a certain level are actually directly toxic to your body. This is what kills diabetics is the toxic nature of carbohydrates past a certain point. And so your body is trying to protect you by. Detoxifying this. So, you know, your body responds to glucose past a certain level as a toxin and try and respond to it by detoxifying it, which is how, you know, it's a toxin.

And so insulin goes up, it stays up and then blood sugar drops down. You get what's called reactive hypoglycemia. And you just get tired and your blood sugar drops and you just take a nap if you can or you have to, you know, suffer and drink a bunch of coffee if you can't. And, um, you know, looking back, that's what it was.

But yeah, I switched back to, I've always eaten very clean. I never ate junk food. You know, I'd have pizza once every few years. Maybe, you know, I mean, it was like, it was just never, never something that, um, was a major part of my diet. We always cooked all our meals. My mom cooked every meal at home, apart from like cereal in the mornings.

And, um, you know, when I was an adult, I did the same and, uh, most of that was meat and I would have some other stuff with it because you're supposed to have other stuff with it and that was pretty much it. And so I went back to a very clean, whole food. Mostly meat, probably ketogenic most of the time because I just didn't, didn't buy a bunch of bread and eat carbs all that much.

Um, sort of diet with, with a bunch of like clean veggies, you know what I mean? Like on paper, you'd think that was a really, really healthy diet and it's a lot healthier than a lot of other people. I felt a thousand times better at 38 when I just dropped the veggies and started eating a lot more fatty meat.

I felt like I was 22 again. And I started performing like I was 22 again, actually went out and started playing rugby again and just was right back into it. And it felt amazing, even though I was insanely out of shape. I hadn't played rugby in three years that were full season in three years. Anyway, I just, just felt amazing and was able to compete at a high level again.

Um, and actually go back and start playing professionally again in Seattle. The, my, my team in Seattle that I grew up playing with, they'd gone fully professional at that point with the, the start of the MLR, the Major League Rugby. And so that was the first season. I was like, I really want to play in this season.

And I was back and feeling great and getting back in shape. Unfortunately, I had a knee injury. But there was just, you know, I felt absolutely incredible from a, from a fitness health point of view. Um, there was, so there's no, no issues there. And then at that point I really started getting really interested in, in this concept and, and, and how much better I was feeling.

And I started really digging into the literature and trying to find out as much as I could. I realized that there was this massive body. Of medical and biological physiological literature out there that you never get taught in medical school or residency It's just completely outside the the scope of teaching there and the reality is is because it's you know, the Curriculum is largely dictated by the food and drug companies.

We're the major sponsors of these institutions, unfortunately They're also the major sponsors of the scientific journals, which I actually found out recently and they actually can You And, and, and say who gets published, where, or even gets reviewed to publish a paper because they don't want things going against their product.

And so they can say, Hey, we're going to pull funding. If you look at that, that paper. And so. People are finding actually very difficult, like to like some of the top professors from, uh, MIT, like, uh, uh, professor Stephanie Seneff, you know, she went to MIT for undergrad and grad school PhD there in computer science.

Right. So she's smart cookie, right. And, uh, top 1 percent of the top 1%. And she has been a professor at MIT ever since. So she's been a tenured professor in computer science, um, for 40 years or so. And then she started doing, you know, biological studies and studying, um, glyphosate and its effects on, on, you know, human health.

And she was saying that that it's actually very difficult to get published, even as a 40 year tenured professor at MIT, because of this, of this issue that they just have this block and stranglehold, even on the scientific medical journal or scientific journals. And so they, there are papers out there though.

There are thousands upon thousands upon thousands of papers out there and studies show randomized controlled trials, large scale human subjects that show massive improvements to human health and reversal of many diseases. And it's, you know, begs the question, why isn't this taught in medical school? And that is a legitimate question because this works better than drugs in a lot of cases.

And so, you know, it's, it's a direct competition with these drug companies and they're the ones who, who, who help dictate the curriculum, but the debt that data is there. It's just that people don't realize it. They think, well, if it was, you know, fit to print, then I would have been taught it. in medical school or residency.

And if it wasn't talked to me there, that means it doesn't exist. And so you talk to them and say, well, there's, there's no evidence to show that diet has anything to do with disease or condition X. And what that really means is that they have no idea. They just haven't looked. Because it, because a lot of the time it is there and so, you know, a good, a good thing to do is say, you ask him about that, no, no, no, there's no evidence for that.

And that question is like, have you looked? Because actually there is a lot of evidence, it's just not spoon fed to us. And so that's, that's sort of been my crusade here for the last several years is trying to get this information out to mainstream. I've obviously seen this direct effect on my life, my family's life, and now my patient's life.

And I'm seeing the evidence. I'm seeing this absolute iceberg. in of information that is just out of sight for people. And they just, you know, they don't even know to look for it. You don't know what you don't know. And they say they don't even look for it. I started asking questions. I said, well, if we, if this is the case, we should see evidence for this.

I just started searching for studies, anything that could, that could compare, you know, these two different contrasting situations and trying to find. Evidence with which to test these theories against. And I found endless supplies of studies of high quality and merit that just don't get taught you in medical school because they don't have a product behind it.

So there's no marketing team behind it to push this out there. And, um, so now putting this into practice and having treated hundreds of patients, about thousands of patients directly in my clinic and my practice. I've seen massive improvements. I mean, things that, that just are right now considered incurable.

They cannot be treated. They cannot be cured. They can only treat the symptoms. No, no, you can, you can, you can cure it if you know what's causing it. You know, you just have to, you have to address the root cause. And so that's what, what I've been doing. And I've been, I've been putting this out there, uh, for free online, telling people, um, showing people the evidence and, and showing them people who have healed different things.

And then you look in the comments, you'll see hundreds, if not thousands of people saying that was me. I would, I did that a few years ago. I'm going through it now. I'm coming up my medications, all these other sorts of things that there is only good is what it's able to predict. And so it's, um, You know, it's a bit telling when people go on a carnivore diet and the, the benefits that they receive or exactly what are laid out every time, time and time and time and time again, you get these very clear progression and improvement.

And so it's just very important to me to get this out to people, to get this out to people so that they can take their health into their own hands and they don't have to be beholden to the medical establishment. And they don't have to be beholden to taking all these medications and supplements and this is and that's and whatever, they can just eat food and be healthy.

The natural state of all life on earth is that of health. And we are the most successful species that has ever walked the earth. And so we should be the healthiest and most robust species on earth. And yet we're the sickest. Okay. So that's not genetic. That's not part of our species. That's not inbuilt in us.

Okay. That's happening to us. And we're seeing this in real time. Every decade, we're getting more and more sick. And so obviously that's environmental. That's not, uh, anything we're in, in innately and built with, built with. So that's very important to me to let people understand how to take back control of their own health and only need the medical establishment when there's an actual emergency, like an injury or infectious disease that they can't clear on their own.

And, and to educate doctors as well and get them on this board, because It's so important for the medical establishment to really understand this as well and know, Hey, look, there's actually better, uh, there's better evidence here for other treatments. And they work better for patients and get better outcomes and they don't cost a fortune.

And so that's obviously better for your patient. And, you know, the more doctors that come across this that I, that I speak to or that, that see it for themselves, the more people that are on board with this because the evidence is absolutely there. And they're seeing this as well. It's not just me. It's not just a few others.

This is tens of thousands of doctors around the world at this point. It is, it is mind blowing, um, you know, that there is very little, uh, if any focus on nutrition, um, in medical school. Uh, I know a few, a few, uh, people personally that have recently finished their medical training and they said they, they did almost nothing about nutrition.

Um, and you know, even. Yeah, you know, modern doctors now, my family doctor, you know, when I mentioned something about carnivore or something, they looked at me like, that's not a good idea. Like, you know, and what's your saturated fat. And, uh, you know, the marketing and propaganda is just, it's incredible how powerful it is.

And I mean, even with something like alcohol, I mean, I don't drink. And if you go out with friends and I said, no, I just want to have some water. People look at you. Like you're weird, you know, that they're like, what is wrong with you? Or, or they think that you've been an alcoholic, you know, that there must be some reason why you're not drinking.

Um, but if you went out and you told people, Oh, I don't drink water. No, I just drink juice and alcohol and go out and drink. And, but I don't drink water. I don't like water. They would, they wouldn't give it a second thought. They'd be like, okay, that's fine. So. That's not, that's considered normal, but if you tell people you want to drink water, then it's not normal.

I mean, it's just, it's so backwards. Um, and, and yeah, with the, with the, you know, with the nutrition and supplements, I mean, that also, to me, doesn't make sense that saying that meat is bad, but yet you can get everything you need from meat and from, if you are on a plant based diet, you need supplement. So why would a diet where you need to supplement be better than a diet where you don't need to supplement?

I mean it I don't know. I mean just from a logical point of view I'm, not a doctor myself, but that just makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah Well, you're not a doctor, but you have a brain and so you can you can think and see what's in front of you You know, and and you don't need to be a doctor To have common sense.

And, you know, in fact, a lot of doctors are probably lacking in that regard. So, you know, common sense, unfortunately, it's not all that common anymore. You know, I used to say like, you know, wisdom from the mouth of babes. You know, what does that mean? That just means, you know, a kid that's just looking at the world fresh and going like, that doesn't make sense.

What the hell are you talking about? And that's, and that's what we need to get back to because we've been taught how to think and what to think. Or sorry, they taught what to think as opposed to how to think and, and, and they pigeonholed our brains to just do what we're told. So, you know, we, we don't actually know how to think critically and look at something and go, wait, hold on a second.

That, that doesn't make any sense. That doesn't pass the smell test because you're right. If, if something is, if a diet is lacking in, in nutrients, if you have to supplement them by definition, your diet is deficient. Right. That's, that's the definition in terms. Well, it could be soil, whatever it's deficient.

You're not getting the nutrients that you require. Now you may have a malabsorption issue, but if your, if your diet just on its face, Cannot provide certain nutrients like B12 or D3 or K2 or DHA or EPA or retinol or the list goes on, then that is a deficient diet. That is not an appropriate diet and obviously it's not a revolved diet.

Because we would die, right? And meat has absolutely everything we need in the proportion that we need it. How do we know that? Because there are people that eat meat exclusively and nothing else. Generation after generation, after generation and society's alive right now. Had that have. absolutely no issues.

And if you're deficient by 1 percent in only one nutrient, you cannot do that. You cannot live generation after generation after generation. You will die out. And so obviously that's not the case. Um, I actually find that it's better that doctors aren't taught nutrition. Because we'd be taught the wrong nutrition, right?

We'd be taught a whole bunch of plant based nonsense and just reinforce this. It would be exactly the same. I mean, it's not like, it's not like it's any different. Um, you know, something like nutritionists are coming out going like, Oh my God, no, we should all be carnivores. They're all saying we should be vegan, you know, because that's what they're getting taught.

Right. And so you have a nutritionist who's promoting a diet that is lacking in basic essential nutrients. You know, it's in the name nutritionist, nutrients, you need nutrients, right? And yet these different nutritional bodies are pushing plant based vegan diets, but why are they doing that? Because they're heavily funded.

By the plant based processed food industry, like Kellogg's, like Sanitarium, like Nestle, like Coca Cola and Pepsi, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So, that's who pays these people, and that's who pulls their strings. And that's why you'll see them pushing a plant based diet, because these processed food companies, Make massive massive profits off of their plant based products So ready made meals all these other sorts of things, but just junk food to potato chips, etc And they know that statistically when people go vegan They don't all go to a fresh quinoa salads and sprouted alfalfa No, they, they eat junk food.

They eat potato chips and Oreo cookies, which are vegan by the way. And so, you know, it's, um, it's, it's just, it's just marketing and propaganda. They're trying to push their product. They're trying to sell more of this garbage. Uh, it is a drug. They have, they've used multiple drugs that are known to be addictive.

There are known drugs like sugar. Sugar is a known drug. It's a known addictive drug, addictive substance. They put in caffeine, a known drug and addictive substance. And it's to compel you. To continue to eating eat their product They have food scientists who are very clever people when philip morris and the other tobacco companies started Tanking in the 80s because you know the bag came out that you know, they've been lying for decades about how dangerous tobacco was Um, they were the largest companies on earth.

They were the largest most wealthy companies on earth So I said, okay. Well, we need to diversify now That's what they did is they went into the processed food industry and they bought up craft and a bunch of other You Big, big companies then became the largest processed food manufacturer on earth. And they moved these thousands of, um, scientists from the tobacco industry over to the food industry.

And they were in the tobacco industry trying to make it more and more addictive and compulsive and so that people just smoked and smoked and smoked and smoked and smoked. So that they sold more product because that's all they cared about. They cared about selling that, you know, 3. 50 pack of cigarettes.

And they wanted you just, just to buy more and more and more of those things. And now it's like, what, like 20 bucks a pack because of the taxes. But like. You know, they don't care that people are suffering and dying as a result of it. In fact, they knew that was happening, which is why I don't think they should have gotten a civil slap on the wrist.

I mean, it's 400 billion, but like, who cares? They made trillions over the years and they killed hundreds of millions of people. Prematurely and cause disease and probably a few billion who were smokers at the time and they knew it They knew this was causing disease. They knew this was causing harm emphysema and cancer, etc Peripheral vascular disease and heart disease.

They knew it their own documents their own their own Um, memos that were leaked out to Congress, the U. S. Congress, that they said that specifically they knew all this was happening, which is why they got that 400 billion fine. And why didn't they face criminal charges? They knowingly killed people. They knowingly caused massive burdens of disease and illness on a global scale.

I mean, this is mass genocide at this point. These are crimes against humanity. We should have had another Nuremberg trial and actually strung these guys up and executed them with a firing squad. Like I, you know, seriously, these guys should have faced harsh criminal Uh penalties because of this or at least a trial, you know, it should have at least been Manifested criminal charges because of this and now we're getting the same thing so these guys took all their their scientists and making tobacco more and more addictive and Breeding up more and more, you know tobacco Nicotine in the tobacco and all these other sorts of things and all these different processes to make it faster and more efficient and more profitable and more hard and end up being more harmful.

So I took all those guys, those very clever people, put these guys into food sciences and to then do that to try to make food as addictive as possible and try to put these different substances. That trigger some called the bliss point that makes your brain just go, Ooh, eat this more of that now, please.

And you eat that because your brain thinks you're getting something really good for you, goes into your stomach. You actually have receptors in your stomach that track the macro and micronutrients that are in your stomach. And that sends a signal up the brain, uh, up to the brain via the Vegas nerve. And your brain actually sees how many nutrients you have there.

So you get this, Ooh, that tastes really good. That's good for you. Taste. But it goes in your stomach and your stomach goes, there's, there's nothing we can, there's nothing. Here, your, your body tracks nutrients. It does not track calories. And so it's not seeing any nutrients and it's getting these bliss point hits and it's, and have these chemicals actually disrupt our normal satiety signals.

So we overeat and we keep eating, keep eating, keep eating, keep eating. And we use more of their product and buy more of their product and they sell more. And that's better for their bottom line. And that's all there is to it. They just, they just want to sell more. If they want to sell more potato chips, they have these, you know, they, they don't even hide it in their advertising.

You know, it's like Pringles bet you can't eat just one. He's like, I bet you, I bet you think that because you designed it like that, you know, and so. You know, it's, um, those are the people funding the nutrition courses and the nutritional colleges. And, uh, you know, there was, uh, they actually, they've come after a number of doctors, uh, such as Dr.

Gary Fetke here in Australia. He's an orthopedic surgeon. He was putting people on ketogenic diets. Um, To reverse their diabetes. And it was reversing their diabetes. And now it's in the national guidelines in Australia to treat diabetes. It's, it's considered best practice to put diabetics on a ketogenic diet.

He was doing this well ahead of his time and he was reversing diabetes and making it so these people didn't need amputations anymore because he was an orthopedic surgeon and he had to do these. foot and leg amputations. And he said it was just horrible. You know, it was, it was a terrible, you know, just hearing a human foot fall into a trash can after you've cut it off.

It's just a terrible sound that you just can't get out of your head. He's like, okay, don't want to do that anymore. And so he's getting these people to change their diet. And it was actually completely turning them around and saving these people's life and their health. And they came after him. In fact, um, Uh, a medical group here in Australia actually sued for the minutes of a, of a certain cereal company and got the minutes and they actually saw in there that they said, this damn ketogenic diet movement is killing our cereal sales.

We need to shut it up. We need to, you know, sort of, you know, show that it's, you know, it's qualified, all those sort of things. And so they know. They named specific doctors around the world who were pushing this and say, we need to discredit these people. We need to get their licenses taken away and say that these are just a phony and a fraud and a quack so that we can go on with this, right.

And they named Gary Fetke by name. And I mean, it's not like he had a massive, you know, social media presence. He had 4, 000 people that followed him on Instagram. It was, you know, it was, I don't know how he got on their radar, but they tapped the Australian dietetics associations who they're, they're the major funders of.

And the head of the Australian, uh, sorry, the Australian Dietetics Association, um, they, the head of the Australian Dietetics Association then called the, the head of Gary Fetke's hospital and said, you need to shut this guy up and shut him down. And so they started trying to work against him to get his medical license pulled.

And so that's who these people are. So thank God that those guys don't have a say in what gets taught in medical school, because it would just be, it would just be reinforcing that same whole garbage and it would just be even more entrenched in people's minds, uh, as they come out of medical school. So, you know, at least, uh, at least there's not that.

I mean, yeah. And you tell someone that and they'll call you a conspiracy theorist. It's, it's all in the literature. This is all published data. It's I mean, it's not just a bear. Yeah, it's not a bear. People just are so blind. So blind to it. Just, you know, propaganda is a powerful thing. Well, I mean, all you have to do is look at the, at the main donors for the Australian Dietetics Association and the American Dietetics Association.

Um, different European groups and, and every country, you know, who funds these people? It's the same, it's just the usual suspects. It's Nestle, it's Coke, it's Pepsi, you know, it's Pfizer, it's Moderna. It's, it's all these other places. You know, it's, it's all the food and drug companies and Bayer. You know, Monsanto, all these sorts of things, you know, they are the ones who are the major funders of these things.

They, and they, they're the major funders for medical conferences. When you go to a mainstream medical conference, you will see who the donors are. It is the big food and drug companies, all the processed garbage food companies. And all of the major pharmaceutical companies that's who funds this these places And of course because their money talks They have a say in who gets to present papers and literature and publications at those conferences And you know, it's it's it's not really going to deviate too far from the mainstream Yeah, my my theory.

I mean my own conspiracy conspiracy theory is uh that you know It's obviously benefits the the medical industry Um, when more people are sick. And so why would, why would the medical industry want to cure disease? You want to keep people alive, but just kind of keep them ticking along so that the money keeps coming in.

And so it makes, it would make perfect sense for me that, you know, the, the food industry and the medical industry work together um, To kind of create this cycle of money coming in sick people. Um, but you know, so they, they living for a slightly shorter lifespan, but you know, it's just a endless stream of revenue.

And they, if they could cure disease just by diet, that would be a, not a very savvy move from a financial standpoint. Yeah. The thing is choose that these food and drug companies are actually, they're quite incestuous because they actually are very heavily invested in each other. And so, you know, that sort of, that sort of makes you a bit suspicious that, you know, they're, they're sort of profiting off of each other's industries.

You know, the food companies making people sick and the, and then the, uh, the drug companies, you're treating that sickness. But as far as curing disease, no, you're, you are completely right in that regard. In fact, that's come out. There's sort of these, these things that were leaked from Goldman Sachs, an investment company.

Um, there was a meeting that. Um, you know, people took a picture of the slide and it went viral, said, you know, is curing someone of a disease, a viable business model? And the answer of course was no, because the, the money is in the comeback, you know, like any good drug dealer, you have to keep people coming back for your product.

You know, if you gave someone a bag of heroin that kept them high the rest of their life, you know, or not needing heroin, like you're out of business, you know? So. You know, you need them to come back and come back and come back. And so, you know, the, the angle is not to cure disease. The angle is to treat the disease and make it more tolerable so that you can live with it.

But never cure it. Um, you know, Chris rock said this in a, in a standup routine he did in the 1990s, he said, you know, they're never going to cure AIDS. That was the last thing doctors cures polio, you know, and like, you know, they're not, you know, they're not cure in this because you know, the money's in, in, in, you know, the return of customer and coming back and money's in the treatment, not in the cure.

And, uh, you know, there's like, so they're never going to cure AIDS and we're going to cure these other things. Because, you know, they're still pissed at all the money they lost from polio, you know? And, um, he said, you know, it's like, it's like, uh, you know, car industry, you know, we have spaceships that are like circling around Jupiter and going into the outer orbits of this galaxy or the solar system and trying to go beyond.

And it's like, you're telling me that we can't make a Cadillac whose bumper doesn't fall off? Like, you're kidding me. You know, it's like they can, but they won't do it because They make more money. If you come back with a problem, buy a new car, get your bumper fixed. And, um, so that's the thing there's, um, I think it was called Gilead.

I remember this. There was a company when I was actually, when I was in, I think I was an intern back in like 2013, um, pretty sure I was entering, I'm pretty sure it was Gilead. They came out with this drug that it was actually a cure for hepatitis C, which you've only been able to treat, you know, it's just like, it's incurable up until then.

And then all of a sudden they had this cure that was coming out. And I remember reading about that and I was just like, Oh, that's probably a good company to invest in because it's as a cure for hepatitis C. And like, there's a lot of people with hepatitis C. So this is, this is a big, this is a big deal.

And, um, and. They actually got in trouble by like Goldman Sachs. And then they actually, these, these documents got Lee, I'm pretty sure it's Goldman Sachs and they, they actually excoriated him and say, Hey, it's, this is not what we want. You, you messed up here. You don't want to cure, we don't want to cure these things.

You know, because that now you're screwed up because we had treatments that just go on for decades and then you have, you know, you have to treat these people forever. But if you cure them, that's it, it's done. So you shouldn't have done that. You shouldn't look for cures. You should look for treatment. Um, and that's, that of course is, is completely antithetical to the, to the actual, Medical establishment, you know that the actual, you know, doctors and researchers who are actually trying to better human health This is this is a very ghoulish Predatory sort of behavior that has absolutely no business Um being a part of the medical establishment, you know, but we need to recognize that is Their motivation right?

And so that's their motivation fine We don't look to them for cures. We know they are not going to try to find a cure You So we need to find a cure. We need to look into these things. And so, that's just fine. You know, that's just, that's just information that we need, but you know, we can't let these people dictate the medical establishment, the medical sciences, and the medical, um, you know, You know, and, and the medical education because they, they are very conflicted.

I have a serious conflict of interest because they want disease to perpetuate so that they can just treat it and make mass amounts of money. They don't want to cure these things. So they should absolutely have absolutely no say in the curriculum, medical schools. I mean, Jesus, that is just so backwards to have that.

You know, I was speaking to a cardiologist this weekend. And he was saying that, you know, drug companies are not even bothering them anymore about prescribing statins because they're off, they're off patent, right? So they're not making huge dollars out of these things anymore. They still make a lot of money, but it's nothing close to what they have, but have these other drugs on patent.

So now they have these, um, these drugs, um, that, that attack your body's ability to make cholesterol even more. And you know, that's what statins do too. But. No, these are the new drug and they're on patent. So that's what you got to push out. And the only reason they're pushing these out is the next big thing, even though they do relatively similar things as statins, it's just because they're on patent and they're really expensive.

Right. And so that's why they're super important and good and wonderful, but they do aggressively lower your body's ability to make cholesterol. You need cholesterol. Your body's made out of cholesterol. I learned that in eighth grade. I remember seeing that in a textbook in my biology class that the lipid bilayer that makes up the cell membrane in our bodies is a lipid bilayer of cholesterol molecules.

So we are literally made out of cholesterol. Our hormones are made out of cholesterol. Our brain is largely made out of cholesterol. Every cell in our body is made out of cholesterol. Bile is made out of cholesterol. Different, you know, um, uh, molecules that, that, that communicate in between different cells are made out of cholesterol.

So how is it that cholesterol is somehow bad for us? How is it that our own natural production of cholesterol is somehow an inbuilt flaw design flaw that is just going to kill us? That's what they're arguing. And, and it is, it is an absurd statement just on its face, even, even without looking at the evidence and the evidence is robustly against them, but now they're saying this is my colleague, um, cardiologist colleague was saying that now they're trying to push for lower and lower and lower LDL targets saying, no, no, we, you have to even get it basically, you know, uh, you know, less than a half Of what we say now you should get it under because these, these new drugs can really lower the hell out of your cholesterol and he's saying, they're telling us to lower these things.

past the point of physiology, like no one would ever be physiologically at these low levels. But they're saying, no, no, that's even better because your body is just, is just built wrong. And you know, just, just nature is just screwed up and we're actually just these flawed entities and um, and that you need these drugs at all.

Thank goodness they came around to make these drugs because we're all just dropping like flies. Before they showed up and and they want you to lower your cholesterol even further. They're talking about lowering uh, the um Blood pressure targets as well trying to get that go down to 115 110 Well because you you sign up You know, another, you know, 30 percent of the population who needs blood pressure medication, right?

So now you've, now you've got to know another, you know, 400 million people that are, you know, paying for your, your drugs, you know? So this is drug dealer one on one, you know, you just get people hooked, get them addicted and get them stuck and get them dependent on your poison so that you can keep making money.

I think that's, it would be a cool, uh, exercise. You, you know, you're talking a lot about cholesterol and, and the blood work and stuff there. And obviously with, with the carnival diet, there's been a lot of pushback with, uh, you know, saturated fat LDL as you mentioned. Um, but what could be cool, I just had a blood test, blood test done, um, uh, but 10 days ago, and I'm not a carnivore, so I just put that out there.

But, uh, I do, I would say, um, I avoid processed food. Um, obviously I do a lot of sport. Um, I. I do eat fruit. Um, I would say that's majority of the carbs that I have. Um, but I was, yeah, maybe you could elaborate on some of the levels because, uh, my doctor was not unhappy, but, um, there are some things which I was concerned a bit, a bit with potentially.

Um, so I do, obviously, as I mentioned before, I do quite a bit of intimate and fasting and I did a three day fast as well, which was, which was quite tough the first time. Um, but actually. Surprisingly, it gets better, uh, as you move along. But my fasting insulin, um, was 1. 8. Um, so that was really low. My, my APOB was 112, which I know Peter T has said quite a lot of, you know, spoken a lot about APOB and how saturated fat increases that.

And then the risk to heart disease. I don't know. What's your take on, on, on APOB? Look, there, there have never in the entire history of human existence ever been experimental trial that was capable of showing a cause and effect relationship like a randomized control trial that has ever shown a cause and effect relationship between any form of cholesterol and cardiovascular disease.

None, not ApoB, not total cholesterol, not LDL, not SDLDL, not any of the different subfractions of LDL. nothing. And so you cannot say that there's a cause and effect relationship between these things. Um, Appleby changes for all sorts of different reasons. Appleby 100 is, is a, um, signaling molecule on LDL that, that the liver recognizes, so it can draw it back into the liver.

So if you get it damaged through glycation, which is elevated blood sugar, because again, elevated blood sugar is toxic to the human body, which is what kills diabetics. And this damages. LDL cholesterol, and this knocks off that ApoB 100, so now you have free ApoB floating around. Okay, so free ApoB floating around, is that bad?

Yeah, of course it is. Is that because ApoB causes atherosclerosis and heart disease? Not necessarily. It's, there's a glycation damaging process that's going on. You're glycating and damaging these LDL molecules, and you're knocking off ApoB. Right. But you, the blood tests that we have actually cannot distinguish between the ApoB that's been knocked off and damaged and free floating and the ApoB that's stuck onto a healthy, large, buoyant, fluffy LDL molecule that's perfectly normal and fine.

So as your LDL goes up, your ApoB is going to go up, you know, and it has nothing to do with saturated fat. Saturated fat again has nothing to do with, uh, serum levels of cholesterol or ApoB. Okay. You know, that's, that's actually a well established, you know, and even accepted again, the U S dietary recommendations, you know, they, they, they cite data showing that they're like, look, there's, there's no reason to limit saturated fat because it has absolutely no bearing on serum cholesterol and absolutely no bearing on cardiovascular disease, except in a protective role, as we saw from, you know, Jack, the German American College of Cardiology.

So Applebee is, is a very poor test because you don't know what you're looking at. It's also really just smoke. It's not the fire, right? Because if you do have free floating ApoB, it's because it's been knocked off through glycation. It's glycation that's the problem. There's a guy named Dr. Kraft who developed the Kraft test, which is a oral glucose tolerance test with insulin looking at, you know, multiple times.

So, you know, at, at, you know, You know, time zero, two hours, and you can check it at five hours as well. And you see how your body responds not only to that insult of glucose, but also how does your insulin respond? And do you have a, you know, an appropriate insulin response and does your glucose correspondingly go down when your insulin goes up?

Are you insulin sensitive? And, um, and, and you see this. So, so Kraft is back in the sixties. He looked at something, something close to like 30, 000. patients, and he, and he did this for all this massive, massive piece of work. And he found that there were only five patterns that emerged of, of how your body responds to glucose and insulin given this period of time and this test.

And that he found that very early on, your body can start responding inappropriately to both glucose and insulin, showing that there's some sort of metabolic dysfunction So early diabetes, pre diabetes, whatever you want to call it, full on diabetes, whatever. There's some sort of glucose and insulin, um, issue and mismatch and your body's just not able to metabolize these things properly.

So if you call that point, the point that diabetes is starting pre diabetes or whatever, but that's the point that it's starting, starting to manifest. You're seeing this on, on these blood tests and on the craft, uh, OGTT that 100 percent of the people in that group, out of nearly 30, 000 people who had cardiovascular disease, Had that dysfunction and early diabetes and none of the people who, uh, didn't have that derangement in blood sugar, insulin had atherosclerosis or cardiovascular disease, basically.

So it's the damage from the glucose that is damaging your vessels. Causing damage, causing that, those, those, uh, that lining to be damaged and causing that to form clots and damage and build up atherosclerosis and plaques and scarring because that's trying to heal. It's healing damage. There wasn't damage in the first place.

There wouldn't need to be any healing and you wouldn't need to build up any plaques. Um, other things can damage your lining. Nicotine directly damages. The artery linings, which is why, you know, smoking and any nicotine product is a risk for developing atherosclerosis and peripheral vascular disease. Um, homocysteine is also known to damage the artery lining.

And. That is an amino acid that is metabolized by B12. You don't have enough B12, then you won't metabolize homocysteine properly. You get high levels of homocysteine and you start damaging your arteries. So there's all these different sorts of things. So, you know, the thing with, with cholesterol, again, there's never been a high level experimental study that has ever shown a cause and effect relationship.

between any form of cholesterol and cardiovascular disease. And yet there have been at least five large scale randomized controlled trials in humans with thousands of human subjects that have shown the opposite. That replacing animal fats with vegetable oils and polyunsaturated, so called heart healthy, fats and lowering cholesterol either had no benefit whatsoever to cardiovascular disease or cause more deaths from heart attacks and strokes, right?

So what the hell are we doing here? Why aren't we teaching those, those in medical school? If there was robust data to show that cholesterol cause heart disease, why don't we use it? Why are we using observational studies like the Framingham study? that said, Oh, there's observation over time that people had higher levels of cholesterol, had higher levels of cardiovascular disease.

Well, that's what was taught to me in medical school. That's what taught to most people in medical school. And we just take it at face value. Oh, okay. I guess. Yeah. Well, everyone knows cholesterol causes heart disease. That doesn't show a cause and effect relationship. That's, that's an association.

Associations cannot by definition and terms show a cause and effect relationship. It cannot. That's definitional and so, and the other, the other side of it is too, is that the actual framing of it was actually misrepresented. The original data showed the opposite, showed actually lowering cholesterol, actually increased death from cardiovascular disease.

And it was misrepresented by the American Heart Association, who again is in the published literature and just in newspapers, having taken, been taking bribes from sugar companies and Procter and Gamble and other sorts of industries. For years to push forward, whatever the hell they want, Procter and Gamble made a product called Crisco.

Crisco is hydrogenated vegetable oil and vegetable oil is an industrial product product that was used in the industrial revolution and hydrogenating this made a thicker, more viscous oil that was used to lubricate big, heavy machinery like tanks and submarines in the German army. The German army actually developed hydrogenation of vegetable oil and made this product.

And. Procter and Gamble bought that technology from the German military in 1911, and then put this product out and just started feeding it to people and calling it Crisco. And they paid Procter and Gamble the equivalent of 20 million. To lie and say that Crisco was good for your heart and that butter and lard were bad for your heart this is the origins of The good fats and bad fats and heart healthy plant oils and ooh bad for your heart You know animal fats.

It's it's lie. It's a complete lie. It's published. It's well documented And yet we're still calling this heart healthy fat. No, of course it's not. It kills people. You know, I mean, that's what the randomized control trials say. And people go, well, that's, these things are flawed because of this. Name one randomized control trial in humans showing that replacing animal fat with so called heart healthy vegetable oil and lowering LDL and total cholesterol, and ApoB, by the way, that would have gone down too in those studies.

Shows a cause and effect relationship between cholesterol and heart disease. There are none. None exist on this earth. If there were, they'd be talking about it. There are none. Has anybody ever said any to you? Because there are none. You know, there's absolutely none. So they talk about these observational studies, they talk about the nurses study, which is like, they give these people like a food questionnaire once a year and say, hey, what'd you eat last year?

What the hell are you talking about? What I eat last year. You're going to remember every single meal. Like, give me a break. You know, if they were serious about this, they'd say, Hey, here's a, here's a log, keep track of all the meals you've had, you're going to have this year. If they were serious about this, which they're not, they want to be able to have.

Garbage data that they can manipulate to look any way they want because, well, we, we were going to correct for this because of course they have incomplete data. What does incomplete data mean? It means it's garbage. It's no good, right? So they, they correct for things and they adjust for things. They, they lie and make things up basically.

And they say, and they manipulate that data in any way they want and they correct it, meaning that they manipulate the data, they change the data, they change the outcomes. To fit anything that they want. And now maybe they do that in an honest way, but maybe they don't. And either way, they're manipulating the data.

They're changing it. And the fact of the matter is the people that do this, like professor Walter Willett at Harvard, they're vegan activists. They're open vegan activists. And so of course they're biased. Of course, they're not going to do this in a, in an unbiased sort of way. And, and it's, and it's rife for bias because it's, it's, you know, it's a garbage way of collecting, um, data.

And so they're saying, well, no, this is, this, this shows such good. No, it doesn't. It's garbage. It's not even good observational data. Like, if you go, you go to the Maasai in, in, you know, in, in, um, Tanzania and, and Kenya, and you see that they are the tallest human beings alive on earth, they're extremely healthy.

They don't get any of these diseases, you know, modern, um, diseases of civilization. Only eat, you know, blood, meat, and milk, and they're crazy healthy, perfect teeth, bleach white, you know, they don't have dentists and orthodontists or anything like that. They're fabulously healthy. And then their neighbors, the Akikuyu, who are alive at the same time, the same area, they interbreed, so they're genetically similar.

And they're largely plant based, whole food, plant based, grow their own stuff, right? No pesticides or anything. And Akikuyu, who are genetically the same stock, five inches shorter, smaller brains, smaller jaws, crooked teeth, poor dentition, multiple health issues, many chronic diseases, and nutritional deficiencies.

And even when you correct those nutritional deficiencies, they don't actually improve their health. It's only when you replace the plants they're eating with meat that they actually get better. That was a large scale observational study done by British in the 1920s. And that was published in 1931. It was 170 pages long, right?

So what about that study? That's a real observational study where they're, they're looking at very specific things going on. They're not cherry picking thing and correcting the data and fudging things and say, Hey, you know, why don't you fill this out and just tell me this and send it back. There are levels of quality for observational studies.

And the nurse's trial on these, uh, these, um, food frequency questionnaires, which is what they're called, are garbage. They're just complete and utter garbage. And they can be manipulated and changed in so many different ways. You could do them fairly well, but this is not a good example of that. But you have other observational studies that are far better.

You have You know, people say that, well, the data about the fossil record, about, you know, how humans have been eating for millions of years, that's observational. No, not really, because, you know, we have scientific, you know, um, information looking at, at the stable isotope, um, picture where we can actually tell what animals were eating at certain times and, you know, what, if they were, you know, had, had different sort of levels of, Um, of carnivory, they're eating more animals or less, you know, animals or more plants or actually eating animals that ate animals that ate animals that ate plants or just eating animals that ate plants, for instance, higher up on the food chain for, you know, for example, you know, you can actually tell that through, through scientific endeavor.

And, and, um, so that's not the same as like handing out a flyer and saying, Hey, can you remember every meal that you ate in the last two years, you know, completely different things. And either way. It's observational. The only experimental data shows that cholesterol is absolutely not a problem. The only experimental data shows that saturated fat is not a problem.

And in fact, it's beneficial in a number of different ways. So it just is flat out against the literature and against well known scientific, um, experiments. Yeah, I mean, I think that's, well, definitely for me, I eat a lot of saturated fat, um, and I avoid seed oils and, and all of that, um, and maybe that's why my cholesterol is higher than what the typical doctor would, would want, you know, my LDL is 177.

You know that that means you're going to live longer, right? Because that's what the studies show, the large population studies show the higher LDL means you live longer. So a study with nearly 12 million participants, and they showed that higher LDL was associated with a lower all cause mortality rate, meaning you died less of things, you lived longer.

There's a study out of Sweden two years ago, looking at 44, 000 people and looked at biomarkers that could best predict living over 100 years old and they found the two best biomarkers was low fasting insulin and high total cholesterol, right? So this is just not what we've been led to believe. Well, that's good to know because I do have low, low insulin and high cholesterol.

I also have low, well, low inflammation, which I thought was interesting considering I'm Eating a lot of meat and, uh, saturated fat doesn't cause, but meat, but meat doesn't cause information, but yeah, but it definitely doesn't. I mean, that's, that's, that's a lie too. You know what I'm saying? It's like, well, Oh, it's so inflammatory.

Why, where's the X, where's the, where's the randomized control trial showing that, you know, where you've isolated meat, because the thing is all these studies that say, well, meat's bad. It's always these associational studies where people eat meat as part of something else. So you have people, they don't differentiate meat.

From all the different things that come with it. Right. So they'll say, so in those food surveys studies, like the nurses study and other sorts of things, they look at, uh, people, how many times did you eat pizza, how many times you have the lasagna, how many times have you had, you know, McDonald's. Well, all of those things tend to have ingredients that are meat.

Therefore they're meat. And so people eat less McDonald's, they eat less pizza. Oh, they let, they eat less meat. And that's how they're saying people who eat less meat have better health outcomes. That's complete and utter garbage. You know, that's intentionally misleading. That's a, that's a, that's a complete design flaw if they, if it wasn't an intentional bias.

So, you know, that's, that's the thing, you know, and one of the things to remember with, with, um, cholesterol is that your cholesterol will go up and down depending on what you, they say, well, it takes weeks and weeks and months to change your cholesterol. No, it doesn't. It takes, it can take minutes.

Sometimes if you check, you check your cholesterol 10 times in the same day, you will get 10 different results. Right. And so if you work out the day before or the morning of, you will get higher cholesterol levels. If you have sex the day before, you'll get higher cholesterol levels. If you stop eating for five days and eat no saturated fat and no cholesterol and no meat, your cholesterol will go up.

If you eat a bunch of plants and vegetables and salads, but no carbohydrates, your cholesterol will go up. If you eat a lot of meat, high fat, and no carbohydrates. Your cholesterol will go up by the exact same amount. Why is that? Because it's a metabolic state change. It has nothing to do with the fat that you're eating.

It has to do with the carbohydrates you're eating. Because you eat carbohydrates, it raises insulin. And insulin is a very busy molecule. It disrupts hundreds of different processes in your body when it gets elevated. And so one of the things, it completely changes your metabolic system. So it changes you from a fat burning metabolism, which you are in ketosis.

And it changes you over to a carb burning metabolism. for listening. You know, which is why you have to keep eating fruit and keep eating carbs. If you're already eating carbs and you're working out and I go, I need to, I need to get more. If you're not doing that, you're just running on your fat. And as a 65 kilo athlete with only 6 percent body fat, you, your maximum glycogen storage in your liver and your, and your muscles is only about 2, 400 calories.

Whereas in just that 6 percent body fat at 65 kilos. You have about 35, 000 calories stored in your fat is 15 times amount of energy, right? That's our major. That's our main and Optimal energy storage form when you eat carbs Insulin goes up insulin is the fat storage hormone and if it goes up too high you cannot burn fat Okay, so now you're in just a carbohydrate metabolism.

You can only run on the carbs You just ate you can only run on the burn the glycogen that's in your storage up to that point But you can't run on your fat So let's say you just stop eating for five days. You did that three day fast and you actually felt better in the later parts of that. Well, why is that?

Because now you're going into ketosis. Now you're running on your fat and actually realized. I don't need to eat. I feel fine. I got plenty of energy because you, you're locked into 35, 45, 000 calories. Like, it's like, this is fine. There's no problem. Right. But how does that energy from the fat get from your fat tissue to your liver?

Right. Because it has to go through your bloodstream, doesn't it? But blood is essentially water and fat is hydrophobic. So they repel each other. So it can't travel. In your bloodstream, so it has to be carried and carry your molecules called LDL and HDL, right? So these are not something that are just built to go and attack and kill your body.

They're designed for a very specific purpose. They carry cholesterol, they carry lipids, they carry proteins and they carry them all over the body for very specific and necessary reasons. You have people that have familial issues and their body can't process, you know, LDL properly, and they have these elevated levels and oh my God, that causes heart disease.

Well, no. Maybe they can't deliver their product, they can't deliver the cholesterol and lipids and proteins that your entire body is made out of. As your body can't heal damage and repair it, maybe that's, what's killing them. We need to think about these things and, um, not put the cart before the horse.

So when you are just not eating for a few days, your cholesterol has to start going up and you'll feel better and better as you go. And when you go into a ketogenic diet, you do what's called fat adaptation. Your body turns on different genes and, and different pathways. So your body can use more ketones properly.

But also. You start increasing the number of HDL and LDL so that you can transport more fat. Your body's running on fat. You need more of these things to move that fat around the body. And that's actually how you become, you know, part of, of that fat adaptation so your body can use more of this energy.

And that's why if you exercise. Your cholesterol will go up because you need more energy. You need to mobilize your energy and get that energy from your fat so that you can work out properly. And so your cholesterol will go up. And if you consistently work out, you'll get higher and higher levels. In fact, this is associated higher cholesterol is associated with better health.

There was a meta analysis of 44 randomized control trials in humans who looking at ketogenic diets and cholesterol levels, and they found that it was actually the healthier, lower BMI people who had the highest LDL and total cholesterol. And as they got more and more obese, their LDL went down, down, down, sort of plateaued here, and then went really down when you got into like higher levels of obesity.

So, in fact, Lower levels of LDL is associated with worse disease and outcomes in health and better metabolic health is actually associated with higher LDL cholesterol. So everything's getting better. You're getting thinner, you're getting healthier, your brain's turned on. All these different biomarkers are improving.

And your LDL goes up. Why are we saying that that's bad? Everything's saying the trend is getting better. So I would say, and again, the evidence supports this, that higher LDL is actually an improvement. Things are getting better, right? And especially when you're in a ketogenic state because you need LDL to transport fat around your body.

If you've got these large, healthy, you know, large, buoyant, healthy LDL molecules that your body made on purpose, Then there's no problem, right? You start glycating that you start adding carbs to the mix and you start damaging these things. You start making a small dense LDL that have lost their app OB 100.

That can be a problem, but is that a problem? Is that directly causing atherosclerosis or is it that the same thing that's damaging the cholesterol is also damaging your arteries and causing atherosclerosis? I would bet money it's the latter. And so the APOB, if you can measure it properly, which you cannot, but really SDLDL, that damage and glycation to the, to the cholesterol, is that the smoke?

Or is it the fire? Well, it's a smoke. It's a sign that things are going wrong. It's a sign that things are being damaged. Okay, so that's useful, but it's not causing anything. The thing that damaged that is what the problem is, I would say. But either way, even if it is causing anything, don't eat carbs.

Problem solved. You know, you don't have the damage in the first place. Either way, it's not something inherent in the cholesterol. Cholesterol does not cause these problems. And if you have zero SDLDL at all and only large point LDL and you fast for five days, your large point LDL will go up and your ApoB will go up correspondingly.

And so why are we saying that that's bad for your heart? Right. We have ample studies showing that periodic fasting, which Peter Atia is a fan of, raises LDL cholesterol, but it also protects against cardiovascular disease and other sort forms of chronic illness. Regular fasting does this, right? We know that.

Okay. But regular fasting also raises LDL cholesterol and apple B. So which one is it? Right? So it's a metabolic state change. Now if you go and eat carbs. Just come right down. You want to freak your doctor out. Just eat Oreo cookies for the next two weeks. Take your, check your blood again. They'll be way lower.

They'll be way lower and you know, and you can eat the same amount of fatty meat. It won't matter. And then go vegetarian. And, uh, but key to, but ketogenic and just eat salads and things like that. And just low fat vegan, but ketogenic spike right back up. You see, because it's, it's about your metabolism and it's about carbohydrates and insulin.

It is not about fat and meat or dietary cholesterol by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe what I found interesting as well was, um, you know, when I incorporated a lot more meat in my diet, um, you know, I've been a, an athlete for over a decade and I always struggled with my, um, with building muscle and with my, um, testosterone levels.

And. I was sitting around 250, you know, my testosterone, which was pretty low. Um, and obviously I was doing a lot of training and I was thinking I was doing the right things. Um, and honestly, only in the last couple of years since I increased quite dramatically, like overall protein and meat intake, I feel the best I ever have.

And my testosterone is now 700. Um, you know, and, and a lot of people, I mean, people like my partner and stuff, and, you know, they said like, what do you, what, what have you been doing? Like, you know, because I'm not, I haven't really changed anything training wise, like I'm doing the same things, just, I find it so much easier to build muscle now than I did before.

And I think a lot of, you know, from a performance point of view, a lot of athletes could. You know benefit from something something like this, but at the same time you have the other argument which a lot of people are pushing You know for sports that you need carbs to to perform at a high level. I mean from a performance point of view You know, what's your feelings for the carnivore diet and also not just aerobic exercise, but also anaerobic, you know sprint work and stuff Do is there any benefit to having some carbs for that or?

You know, can you do everything just on meat? Well, you can definitely do everything you need on meat. I mean, again, historically, I mean, people used to hunt mammoths and fight saber tooth cats and, um, you know, they found, they found, um, footprints sort of fossilized in like a clay bed clay back then of, um, Australian, um, the indigenous Australian, you know, from, I don't know, if you're 30, 40, 000 years ago.

And so they're running on wet clay, right? And they, they track their, their stride lengths and they found these guys were running as fast or faster than Hussein Bolt. Right. Wow. Three of them right in wet clay, barefoot. Right. So, you know, the, these guys were, were legit. And so, you know, and that, and that's, and that's on a ketogenic state.

So, you know, we, we don't have to guess at this. There are, there are quite a lot of top athletes in both endurance sports and. Explosive sports that are turning to this and having massive, massive benefits. And, and there are high level studies in top athletes already showing benefits. It depends on, on how you, you structure your study though, because like I said, there is a period of fat adaptation where your body starts utilizing ketones and fat oxidization.

And so it does take a bit of time. So there's a, there is a sort of a transition period for me. I actually just felt sort of better and better. I didn't, I didn't feel really a lag, but after two weeks, oh my goodness, it just took off and a lot of people find that, that maybe they have a bit of a lag for the first couple of weeks.

And then after that sort of two, three weeks on, they, they really start. Feeling amazing. So in the third and fourth week, after two weeks, they feel a lot better and start really taking off. Um, obviously, you know, when you triple your testosterone level, that is going to help you as an athlete of any description, right?

And so, like I mentioned as well, now you have access to 15 times the amount of energy for someone who is only 6 percent body fat, who is extremely lean at a high level, elite athlete sort of level of fitness. Um, but. You know, we're talking about performance, right? So there are studies out there. There's, um, there is, uh, Tim Noakes, who's a professor of.

Of, um, you know, sports science and sports medicine. He's, he's one of the premier sport scientists in the world. He's been looking at this for quite some time. And he was one of these people that really pushed carbohydrates for decades because that was what was taught. And so that's what he was taught.

And so he taught it back. That's what medicine is. You, you learn something. If you don't have any reason to question it and you regurgitate it back to the next generation. And, uh, that's what he did for a long time. And then he actually came out of retirement to basically try to undo his own, uh, legacy and just say, Hey guys, I got it wrong.

You know, and he could have just retired on top as books were still selling. Everything was great. You know, everyone loved him. And he just said, no, look, I got it wrong. I feel like I've been lying to people for 30 years. Like we've got to change this. And so, you know, a lot of integrity to come back and start trying to undo, undo his own work and, um, he got vilified and attacked for it.

They tried to take his license too, but so he's done these studies. And he found that after you give people a period of, of fat adaptation, in this case, six weeks, that they had absolutely no drop in performance compared to the carbohydrate athletes. This was in, in sort of recreational sort of, uh, athletes.

It wasn't like top, top tier athletes, but they really challenged them. They did series of 800 meter sprints. It's a really challenging run and, and they did, you know, race after race, after race, after race, after race, really tried to wear these people out because we were saying, well, there's just the residual glycogen that they have in their muscles.

That's what they're running on. They're not running on fat oxidization. He's like, ah, bullshit. And so he just kept running them on 800 meter. runs until there's absolutely no chance of any glycogen being left in their muscles and kept going. So obviously this is, this is bad oxidization. The other guys just kept having to suck down sugar gels and all that sort of stuff with their energies up.

Keto group did not, but then they, it was a crossover trial. So they had a two week washout period. They ate whatever they want. And then the keto group switched to carbs and carbs switched to keto. And again, they were given six weeks to adapt. And they tested them again and again, absolutely no drop in performance, right?

And he found that really basically after about three weeks, everybody was keto adapted and they could perform at the, at the level that they had before. Um, you can, you can do that in another way, like they did in the supernova trial. Where they took ketogenic athletes and they said, okay, you go, or they took athletes and said, okay, you drop the carbs, go keto.

And, but they only gave them two weeks and then they tested them sort of, you know, very quickly after, you know, a couple of weeks, um, they also didn't correct for sodium and, um, and electrolytes and water and things like that, because when you're first changing over to a ketogenic diet, your insulin levels come down and insulin normally draws in.

excess electrolytes at your kidneys. And so now all of a sudden your insulin drops and it's like sort of pulling the rug out from under the, under your kidneys. And you can spill out too many electrolytes until it sort of balances out. And it does balance out, but it can take a little time, especially early on.

And so this is well described. In, um, in the literature that, that you can lose too much and you may need to add as much as five to seven grams of salt a day to make up for this loss because that can also draw water and you can get dehydrated. And so that's obviously going to have a serious, uh, disadvantage to, you know, any sort of athletic endeavor.

And they didn't actually give these people adequate levels of electrolytes and they didn't, didn't correct for that. So they found that in this, Oh, well, they were going through fat oxidization. But their performance has actually dropped. And so I was like, okay, well, who cares what, you know, the, what fuel they're burning, you know, they're, you know, you don't, you don't, um, you know, if you don't get the performance advantages or whatever, but again, this is, that only gave them two weeks, they didn't have any chance to adapt.

Okay. So, you know, we know that, but. You look at that, that Professor Noakes, it was six weeks, absolutely no drop in performance. Okay, well, what if we go further than that? You know, what if we go, um, to, to Volek's FASTER trial, where you had, um, ultra endurance athletes, Going on to a, um, you know, self selecting into a, uh, either a carb group or a keto group and then adapting them for, I'm sorry, it's Volek and Finney, uh, adapting for, uh, 12 weeks.

So you have a 12 week adaptation period. And at the end of this, they put them through all of these trials. And again, they. You know, had no drop in results actually look because they say, you know, the argument is, is like, well, you have to have carbohydrates to have, um, uh, be a high level athlete because, you know, after a 60 percent VO two max, You're, you're going to switch to burning carbs and that's just, that's just how it is.

And so you have your, your zone two running and that's your fat burning level and over here and then it's going to be carbs. You want to stay down over here with your blood and, and, you know, um, something that, that, um, you know, Dr. Tia, who, first of all, I've got a lot of time for, for Dr. Tia. I just fundamentally disagree with him on the cholesterol side of things, but, um, but you know, something he's talked about, you know, zone two running, you want to get your blood.

Um, your, your heart rate down, all these sorts of things that is only in the context of carbohydrate metabolism. So Volek and Finney showed that, um, that when you're keto adapted and, and, and running on ketones, you're actually burning a fat you're doing, going through fat oxidization, your muscles are burning fat well past 92 percent VO two max.

Right. So it's only a very small portion of the energy is being used in carbohydrates. And you make carbohydrates, you know, there's parts of your body that still like carbohydrates, but that's why you make carbohydrates, the vast majority of your tissues, including your muscle, your brain, your heart, your intestines, and other organs primarily run on ketones if they're available.

And how do we know this? Because when you have both ketones and glucose available. Those tissues will only run on ketones if there is enough, even when there's glucose here, they just pick the ketones. So that's a preference, right? That's first choice. So that's the primary energy source. It's only when those ketones start declining that you start filling in the gaps with glucose.

You eat carbohydrates and your insulin goes up and you suppress your body's ability to make ketones. So we know that. So. The interesting thing about that, that Volek trial as well was that they took, um, Oh, sorry. Um, the bullet trial that wasn't, that wasn't 12 weeks. That was actually, um, high level athletes, um, like ultra marathon runners and Ironman runners.

Um, who, uh, Had already been ketogenic. So apologies for that. And they, um, I mixed it up with the McSweeney trial. I'll talk about in a second They had a minimum of like nine months and maximum of like 36 months average of 20 months Right. So they've been ketogenic for a long time and they tested them on three major, major exercises.

First of all, a hundred mile run, right? And then a six second sprint. And, um, um, actually, I'm sorry, I'm getting a bit, um, backwards. I think that actually was the McSweeney trial that they tested them against. Um, yeah, on those, uh, on a hundred mile run. On a six second sprint and then, uh, and a critical power test, like a, like a lifting explosive sort of test.

Right. And, um, and they tested these guys after about 12 weeks. So they self selected into, into these, uh, into these things. And the keto athletes outperformed the, uh, carbohydrate athletes on every single. On every single one, they came to statistical significance on the, um, on the sprint and the, and the, you know, peak power, um, test.

And, uh, it was the trend was that they did better on the, uh, on the a hundred mile run, so they outperformed on, on all of these, on all of these metrics. Right. Um, the interesting thing about the Volek trial was that they did, um, they did, uh, muscle biopsies. On these guys, uh, before, after, and then I think three hours after the, um, the, you know, the big major event that they did and actually found that the keto athletes had exactly that will essentially exactly the same muscle glycogen as the carb athletes before, after, and then three hours after recovery.

Right. Even though the carb athletes were sucking down, you know, sugar packets and gels and things like that, and the, and the keto athletes were just running on their own fat and they were just replenishing their own glycogen, um, as their body needed it. So, you know, any, any sort of way you look at it, this is, this is a benefit.

It's funny. Whenever you talk to people, it's whatever, whatever sport they do, they always like will acknowledge the, um, the evidence for like, well, okay, well, if they're like an endurance that, well, you know, we, yeah, we understand that, you know, for sprinting high intensity. Yeah, yeah, sure. Keto Keto is best, but you need carbs for like a long term.

Sort of thing, right? And he said, well, actually, you know, look at these studies and all that sort of stuff. And you look at like Chris Froome, you know, um, you know, multiple tour de France winner who does keto, right? So he does these, these tour de France races, ketogenic, and you have all these Ironman athletes and ultra marathon runners who do keto and things like that.

And they're like, Oh, well, and there's always an excuse as to, well, that's just anecdotal or whatever. It was like, well, okay, well we have these trials as well, or you'll have, The high performance explosive sprint power. Well, yeah, that works for long distance stuff and ultra marathon, but you know, that's not going to work for my, but there's always an excuse.

There's always like, well, it's not going to work in my sport. Yes. Yes. I recognize all this evidence and the other side, but not in my side, but the evidence is actually quite clear in both and more and more people are coming to this and, and just trying it out for themselves. That's really what, what it comes down to is, you know, you try it for yourself.

You know, and you see if it gets better, you need to give yourself some time, be aware of electrolytes, be aware of the amount of water that you need, um, and be aware that you need to give yourself a chance to adapt and fat adapt, but you will continue to get better and better and better, you know, and, um, you know, going back to Peter Atiyah, I mean, he talks about this as well, that being in ketosis for a long term period of time, put your body through a continuous state of autophagy.

And cell turnover and also mitochondrial turnover and generation and other sorts of benefits where after two, three, or sorry, three, four months in a ketogenic diet that you'll have four times a micro mitochondria and they're four times as effective where people don't know mitochondria are the powerhouses of the cell that wants to generate ATP and energy.

in your cells. And so that's a massive, massive, massive boost to your cellular metabolism. And so we are just a product of all of our cells and all of our cells are now multiple times more efficient at generating energy. So our whole body is much more powerful at generating energy. After two years or so you have even more.

So you keep getting benefits to your mitochondria. And your cellular health and metabolism, the longer you go on a ketogenic diet. So there's massive improvements. And so, you know, you give it a try, you know, drive for three months. Do you mean we have, we have literature on these top level world class athletes outperforming other world class athletes that are eating carbohydrates at the three month mark.

You know, we have them equivocal at the six week mark, right? And we have them well above them at the average 20 month mark, right? So, you know, the evidence is there and, uh, you know, people in, in rugby, top rugby players around the world have been using this for a long time. They don't talk about it necessarily publicly.

Some do, but they, they, but it's, it's, it's a, you know, it's this trade secret. I mean, you triple your testosterone, you know what I mean? Yeah. I do like people. You know, people pay a lot of money and risk jail time and the, and, you know, ruining their career to play again, to, to, to get nowhere near those results.

Right. So, you know, this is, this is like free steroids. That's, you know, that's, um, that's legal and actually healthy for you, you know, because all of your hormones are coming up. It's not just, it's not just the testosterone. And so you're getting this massive, massive improvements in performance. And there are, there are top teams, top professional teams who are working with people that I know and myself included, who have switched to these.

Um, ketogenic approach, ketogenic carnivore approaches massively improved. Their performance and on paper, we're beating teams that, you know, we're beating teams that on paper, um, should have really, really smashed them. And they, they just took them apart. And so this is happening again and again. And, and, you know, many, many people, I mean, the, you know, there, there are multiple New Zealand, all blacks, rugby players.

Who've been doing this for years. I've had some reach out to me. Some of them still get a bit freaked out. And so like before the game, they'll still have some cars, but other times they don't do anything. You know, there's just that meet the whole time. They say they feel just amazing all the time. And a lot of them are full on ketogenic, you know, the Frank brothers.

Are are openly ketogenic and mostly carnivore i'd say, you know, it's mostly high fat meat based ketogenic diet Uh, one of these guys is 38 years old and just got signed to another three year contract with the crusader Right as a prop, right? I mean props don't last that long I mean, he's like a fullback prancing around or something like that not getting hit sure But I mean, you know, this guy's in the meat grinder every day and he's and he's still you know, just outclassing You know people, you know 18 20 years younger than him And, uh, you know, I mean, that sort of experience that, that, that level of international experience in his body still works and his, and his athleticism is still at the top of his game.

You just can't compete with that as an athlete. And so, um, and the other side of things is there, there are huge advantages from a longevity standpoint. You know, if you think about this. You know, a, you're going to get all the benefits of going carnivore. You're going to get rid of all, you're going to lose fat.

You're going to be building muscle easier than you ever have in your entire life. You're going to get rid of all these plant toxins, which are, you know, quite harmful and they build up in your body. You have this, you know, thermogenic effect of food and ketones where you're actually, your basal metabolic rate actually increases by 350 calories a day.

So you're just, you're just burning more energy and you just, you have more energy available. Um, but you also are gonna, you know, uh, you use less oxygen. To produce ATP per ATP molecule, right? You know, your ketones, you use less NAD plus, which is a very important molecule as it gets lower as we age. And people basically directly relate that to our metabolic age.

You don't have the less NAD plus, the more of this stuff you use, you know, you run out and you start running out of, uh, these different processes of different, um, of NAD plus to, to use in these different processes and it slows you down metabolically. To run. A glucose molecule and make two molecules of acetyl CoA to then run through the Krebs cycle and make ATP, you need four NAD plus molecules.

For ketones, again, to make two molecules of acetyl CoA, you only need one. So you need a quarter of the amount of NAD so you're much more metabolically active. You use less oxygen to develop that ATP as well when you're running on ketones, uh, versus carbohydrates, uh, glucose as well. Um, It lowers inflammation a you're eliminating all these inflammatory factors that cause inflammation and glucose in itself Causes all sorts of inflammation and damages to your mitochondria, etc.

But when you have higher ketones uh, beta hydroxybutyrate actually blocks the nlrp3 inflammasome and That directly lowers inflammation. So, you know, what about you know glucose we talked about how glucose damages the body It also damages Your cartilage in your joints. And so as an athlete, I mean, that's, that's your life is your joints.

When your knees start going, your elbow starts going, when your back starts going, that that's it for your career. Right. And then you're crippled the rest of your life. Some of these people, you know, it's, that's not, it's not a fun place to be in, but breakdown, articular cartilage has been shown to be directly caused by, um, carbs.

This glycation process, this damage from elevated blood sugar because you're taking in carbs and you're spiking your blood sugar and it comes down, you spike the blood sugar and it comes down, you spike the blood sugar and it comes down. Well, that area under the curve is all damaged to your body. And in fact, in, um, you know, Professor Noakes and others, when they're studying these top athletes, when they're using carbs or not using carbs, they're finding that the carb athletes, yeah, their top athletes are performing at a, at a world class level.

Yeah. But they're all metabolically sick. They're all getting pre diabetes and diabetes, right? So how's that going to help with the longevity of your career? How can you say that you're, you're healthy if you're, you know, running an ultra marathon at record time? And you have diabetes and your kidneys are failing.

I mean, that's, that's insane. So, you know, this, this, the longevity principles are huge as well. And again, you don't break down your cartilage as much when you're not glycating them. This has also been found these glycation products. Have also been found in, um, in discs in your spine. So you get degenerative spine and, uh, all these sorts of problems from that.

A lot of this is, is coming from, you know, you can have direct damage, you can injure yourself, but glycation blood sugar directly damages. Your discs in your spine and this, then this destroys it, you know, being in a ketogenic state, you're going through autophagy, you're, you're increasing brown, uh, brown fat, um, you have all the sorts of, you know, you increase your growth hormone because insulin blocks the action of growth hormone and suppresses testosterone in men.

It also suppresses estrogen production in women. So, you know, the, the list goes on. I mean, there, there's really an. Unlimited amount of benefit that this causes people, um, both layman and, and top athletes. And it's just, it's, you know, just from a straight up performance point of view, you can, you can already make an argument that this is beneficial, but from a, like a longevity point of view, there's absolutely no question.

There's nothing that, that can be shown, uh, that, that you're going to be healthier. by sucking down tons of sugar and, uh, and carbohydrate packets because you destroy your metabolic health and cause diabetes and just break down your body from the inside and your career will be far shorter and your life will be far harder after that.

And whereas if you're ketogenic carnivore the entire time, you will have a much longer career and you'll find that you're 40, 45 years old, still performing, uh, you know, and, and your body working like you're 25. And, but now you have 25 years of experience like the Frank brothers and you are absolutely going to crush people.

Um, the, the, yeah, I could talk about the performance side all day. Uh, what, what's your, what's your thoughts on, um, on fruit? Uh, because the one thing I've heard. with the carnivore and keto diets is that your cortisol goes up. Um, and I know some, I mean, people like. Paul Saladino that have had a complete 180, uh, just about from being pure carnivore.

Um, I mean, what's your thought, what's your thoughts on that? And why do you think, you know, people like that have made that huge change? Well, the thing is, is that You know, Paul, and I, you know, I know Paul, and I, you know, I've got a lot of time for Paul. Um, the, the thing that he didn't, you know, maybe didn't think about or, or, or I haven't heard him address anyway, was the fact that he had been on a ketogenic carnivore diet for about a year and a half.

Before he started seeing some issues, but there have been people that had been on ketogenic diets, like an Atkins diet or a keto diet or, or carnivore diet for decades at that point that had never had those problems. So your entire civilization is you have the Inuit. Who lived their life in ketosis, right?

Again, all of our ancestors that lived through the ice ages, you can't just eke out existence. Like if your hormones are crashing, your testosterone's burning out, your thyroid's going, going kaput, and you're just, you're just getting sick and you have to have carbohydrates because being in ketosis is harmful to your body.

How do we survive all the ice ages? You know, yeah, we can't, you know, you, you can't do that. You know, we've only started drinking milk for about 10, 15, 000 years. You know, we talked about, um, you know, amylase started coming into the gene, um, the gene expression about 10, 000 years ago. Um, lactase persistence only came in around 10, 15, 000 years ago as well, because that's when we started domesticating animals because the megafauna died out and we weren't, we didn't have access to these animals.

These big. Heavy, fatty animals. The bigger the animal, the higher the percentage of fat, um, in their bodies. So, you know, that, that sort of doesn't, doesn't explain, you know, you know, he had that issue, but you know what, I, I have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of patients who have put on a carnivore diet, a ketogenic carnivore diet.

They've never had the problems that, that Paul had. And there's, Also, you know, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people that were doing carnivore before him and doing ketogenic before him. And Atkins diet is a ketogenic diet below the, you know, Atkins, um, argued for less than 10 grams of carbohydrates a day.

It's very, very low carb ketogenic diet. People were doing that for decades. You know, there are treatment groups like Dr. Eric Westman over at Duke who uses ketogenic diets for the last 20, 30 years to, you know, to treat people and they're not seeing these problems either. So whatever happened to Paul to cause these problems, I can tell you it wasn't from ketosis.

The natural state, our natural state is that of ketosis. I was in, you know, by the time Paul did that, I'd already been in ketosis twice as long as him. I'd already been in ketosis for five years in my early twenties. Never performed any, anywhere close to that. Well, before or since until right now when I was doing it, and I've been in ketosis for the better part of a decade now, right?

I don't have any of these problems. My, my testosterone is, is fantastic. I have patients that have. You know, tripled their testosterone as well, doing ketogenic carnivore diet. 72 year old man. That's my oldest patient. He tripled his testosterone. His testosterone was 220 and four or five months on a ketogenic carnivore diet, and it, and it jumped up to 750, right?

So, you know, massive improvement and, and really revitalizes health. And a lot of other biomarkers improved as well. And just as health in general, uh, improved cortisol, um, actually does not go up. So it, it depends on which studies you're looking at. I did a, I did a whole video. It's like two and a half hours long, really dig into the literature and the research with a friend of mine, Richard Smith, um, called is ketosis harmful.

And we go through all these sorts of things. This is all propagated from a guy. Hey, Pete, who just argued that no ketosis is really harmful. And, you know, and he made this arguments and he makes some compelling arguments, but the argument, the, the evidence, the basis of these things on is not compelling because you're saying, well, your, your cortisol goes up.

Okay. Well, you know, the studies that, that they sort of look at are, you know, sort of small population size and not for that long. And you'd look at other studies that have, you know, larger population size and, um, you'll go for a similar length, call it eight weeks. Um, and they actually find that no, actually cortisol stays the same.

Thyroid doesn't go downhill. All these other problems actually get better. Metabolic health improves. Um, Dr. Finney, uh, Professor Finney, um, who, who's no dummy. He's a professor at, um, uh, UC Davis and he's an MD PhD from MIT and Stanford. So, I mean, he's, he's got a brain in his head and he's been studying ketogenic diets for 30 plus years, never found these issues.

describes from being in ketosis, and he's been in ketosis himself for 30 plus years or so. And so, you know, when you look at those studies, when you look at, so that's eight week period, or there's people getting improving, improving, improving, um, You know, there's multiple reasons why people improve. I mean, there are literally thousands of randomized controlled trials in humans showing the benefits of specific medical outcomes and biomarkers, um, for, for being on a high fat meat based ketogenic diet, but specifically ketogenic.

Ketogenic actually has the, the ketogenic diets have the largest, um, body of, of scientific literature and randomized control trials to support it. It's actually very, very well supported and we have these longterm trials. So, you know, one that I talk about in that video is, um, is a group that they studied the effects of people being in longterm ketosis of 24 months, which is longer than Paul had been on a carnivore diet at that point.

He said that, that things started going wrong at about 18 months. So this is 24 months. So six months after him. They found none of the problems that Paul exhibited. They had no rise in their cortisol. They had no drop in their testosterone. They had no drop in their thyroid function or any other deleterious outcome.

In fact, they found improvements across the board in all these things. You know, one, one argument as to why in certain study populations with certain, you know, subgroups that you could see a relative increase in cortisol is Because a lot of people studying these things, a lot of people are unwell and unhealthy and a lot of people going on to ketogenic diets are doing so because they're metabolically sick.

They have metabolic syndrome, they've got diabetes, they're obese, right? So you're studying those people, you're studying a sick population. Right? So that sick population, you see that cortisol go up and you're like, Ooh, okay. But you're going from sick to healthy. Okay. So how high does the cortisol go up?

Well, not all that much. In fact, metabolic syndrome is known to suppress cortisol. So people have actually too low cortisol. So fixing your metabolic health and reversing your metabolic syndrome, that can actually just recorrect up to a normal amount. And so that could be perfectly physiological for that person.

Right. So there are quite a lot of studies that go counter to this and, and if people are interested, they can go and watch that, that, um, discussion. We, we go through all the repeat arguments. Um, there was a guy named Georgie Dinkoff who's, who's really popularized a lot of great repeats passed away, but they, Dinkoff has really popularized a lot of repeats, um, teachings and went on with, um, you know, Dr.

Mercola and, and I believe that, Really influenced, um, Paul, but, you know, I, I'm, I'm, you know, don't quote me on that. That's just my understanding. And so he started, you know, looking into that and started, you know, sort of thinking that, that Ray P probably had it right. And then, you know, he made these changes and he found improvements in his health.

great. I'm really happy for him to do that. I don't think that it was from being in ketosis. I think there was other things. And there, there are different theories about, about that. Um, there's a lady named Judy Cho, who's a nutritionist who again does ketogenic carnivore. And she actually went through this and sort of made an argument as to why she thinks that, that Paul had the problems that he had and actually shows with the blood work that he showed arguments for that.

You know, one thing, and this could may or may not be, but You know, he really, uh, you know, um, promoted eating a lot of, a lot of organs, especially if you look at this from a, from a hunter point of view, you take down a Buffalo, right? That thing has enough meat on it to feed you for two years as an individual.

It's got one liver, it's got one heart, it's got two kidneys, right? So that, that like one, it's a big liver. But it's one liver and it, that's going to be stretched out over two years, right? You really don't need much. You really, really don't need much. And in fact, a vast majority of people actually don't need to include organs.

People have MTHFRG mutations, something like that, which is a significant amount of people. They may need to add in a bit of liver, but you're talking a couple ounces, a couple of days a week. It's not much like a couple bites. A few days a week, it's not much, right? So he was eating these things, very nutrient dense.

And yes, you're going to catch up on your nutritional deficiencies very quickly, but if you're not careful, you can go too far the other way and get hypervitaminosis. Um, it is the case that when you eat carbohydrates, it actually increases your body's demand for most vitamins and minerals. And so if you were to get, say, hypervitaminosis A, liver is very rich in vitamin A, it's a fat soluble vitamin, so it's not like the B vitamins where you can just pee out the excess, they build up in your body.

Vitamin A is known to suppress thyroid function and disrupt other hormonal balances. So if one were to get a mild hypervitaminosis A, You could start to suppress your thyroid and you could start to see these issues exhibited now again We have those studies going on two years of ketosis people's thyroids don't tank right?

My thyroid hasn't tanked I've been doing this for seven years. I checked my bloods recently. My thyroid's perfect all my patients their thyroids improve Their testosterone improves all their other markers improve as well. So that could be explaining. I don't I don't know This is this is pure speculation.

I don't think anybody really knows but I do know it's not ketosis because There's so many other people that are doing ketosis much longer and they don't have any of these problems. If you do have hypervitaminosis, and it is suppressing your thyroid. And you eat carbohydrates that actually increases your body's demand for vitamin A.

And now maybe you don't have an excess, maybe now you're, you're just right. And so maybe now it's not suppressing your thyroid. It's just a thought, you know, but the thing is, is that thinking that it was ketosis causing this is also just a thought it's, is just as valid theory. Right? It's just people looking at the observed phenomena and trying to figure out what the hell is going on.

But if you look at other populations, like the entire civilization of the Inuit, or the Native Americans in the Great Plains who just ate bison all year, and were some of the healthiest and tallest human beings alive on Earth at the time. In fact, they were the tallest human beings alive on Earth at the time.

That's in a study called The, um, tallest in the world published in 2001, but they just ate meat. They were in ketosis. And again, all our ancestors during the ice ages, they were all in ketosis. If you're getting thyroid dysfunction. You're gonna probably if you get hypothyroidism and you have hypothyroidism while pregnant and your child can't produce thyroid properly Congenital hypothyroidism is called cretinism.

You call people like this insults. I got you cretin some of the best insults are all Um, actual medical terms for medical conditions. And this is one of them, idiot. That's actually a medical terminology for a person who has an IQ of zero to 30. Right. So it was like the worst of the worst imbecile was 30 to 50.

Moron was 50 to 70. So. You know, that's why people were calling it a moron became because it was, it was sort of novel, but people went straight for idiot because that said you were the dumbest it was possible to be your IQ was zero to 30, right? So, you know, they, they skipped imbecile and moron just went urine.

Idiot, you know, there's no work, right? And Cretan is, is one of these things as well. And they get, uh, their short stature, they get very, um, distinct facial characteristics and deformations, their intellectual impairments and learning disabilities, and, and they're very impaired, right? So. That's not going to work.

A, we, we look at these skulls and they're not disfigured and, and showing these signs of cretinism. Um, also they're very tall. They're a hell of a lot taller than we are now. Cretinism makes you shrink. You don't grow as well. And, um, you die, you know, if you had a whole bunch of cretins running around, like they're not going to run, they're not going to be able to make it through.

They're not going to be able to hunt woolly mammoths and they're not going to be an average of six foot three, six foot four with massive brains, right? So you know, we don't see that. So if we did get severe thyroid dysfunction, hormonal dysfunction, we wouldn't get that. You know, 70 percent of animal species are carnivores.

They eat fat and protein because they're eating other animals that are made out of fat and protein. They're all in ketosis. Lions have been tested. They're in ketosis. Wolves have been tested. They're in ketosis. That I don't know of anybody who's, um, you know, tested this in gorillas and, um, cows or bison, but I bet you they're in ketosis because they eat leaves and grass made out of fiber, fiber strings of glucose, but that's not what they absorb the bacteria in their gut, eat the fiber.

And as a breakdown product, as a by product, they actually release saturated fat. And then protein, um, or the, my, uh, bacteria are very protein rich. And so when they die off, because they have a short life cycle, they actually get broken down and absorbed as protein. So gorillas eat fiber, bison eat fiber, but what they absorb is fat and protein because of their bacteria that they cultivate, you know, and get some, some protein from the, from the, uh, the.

Plant as well, but the majority of it comes from the bacteria and the fat comes from the bacteria as well So they're not getting carbohydrates. These are the vast minority of their calories come from carbohydrates And so, you know, they're eating fiber, but what they're absorbing is fat and protein. So I would bet you that they're in ketosis too.

So the natural metabolic state of nearly every animal alive on earth is ketosis. And, uh, you know, I don't know what the hell a bumblebees metabolic system is. I have no, I don't, I don't care, but, uh, you know, uh, almost every other animal on earth. Is in ketosis is in a ketogenic metabolism and you look at human examples and we have entire civilizations and populations alive right now that that's their, their primary way of eating, at least traditionally, and they've been, you know, driven out of their, their natural ways of doing things and been hurt as a result of it, but, you know, traditionally they don't.

And so, you know, we don't see that we don't see people getting harmed in this way. with long term ketosis. So I'm, you know, obviously something happened. I don't know what it was, but whatever it was, I don't think it was from being in ketosis. So we've obviously established that being in ketosis and preferably a carnivore diet is the optimal diet for humans.

Um, you know, but I think for, it can be quite a daunting thing to look at for a lot of people because I mean, Especially with society today to try to make this transition. Um, I mean, what would your sort of shotgun approach be, um, for people that want to make this, the sleep and someone that might be at the moment on a typical Western diet with a lot of processed food, you know, what, what would their steps be?

You know, cause I can imagine to go cold turkey might be quite difficult for a lot of people. Yeah, well, you know, if it is, I mean, the easiest thing to do, just cut out the processed foods, you know, that that's, that's going to cause the, the, the highest burden of, of issue and then make fatty meat, the, the main part of your meal.

If you can do that, if you make, if you just go back to whole foods and. And just eat what was around 200 years ago, make the majority of what you eat, fatty meat. Don't be afraid of the fat. That's really good for you. It's very important. That's what your, your brain and your body and your, and your hormones are made out of.

And there's a lot of essential, it's not just a calorie source either. There are essential fatty acids that you have to have, or you can get sick and die. And they're essential fat soluble nutrients that you have to have, or you will get sick and die. So it's very important to get these things. And so don't be afraid of the fat.

If you just eat fatty meat and that's the main part of your meal and you cut out processed foods, you cook for yourself, you eat whole foods right there. You're going to make a massive improvement in your health, but you will get even more improvement if you cut out all the plants and fruits and veggies and all the, even the whole foods, because the meat gives you all the energy or all the nutrition that you require.

In the proportion that you need it, but the other things cause harm. Plants have defensive chemicals. This is, this is the well known botanical fact. It's something that, you know, one of the main reasons I really liked, um, uh, you know, talking to Paul is he was one of the, one of the first people besides me to talk about plant toxins.

I was like, yes, someone else gets it. Right. So, because they, they are toxic, you know, and so we need to recognize these things, and if you don't respect. The plant's defense is you're going to, you're going to run, you know, face first into it, you know, and you're going to get hurt. And a lot of people have, and so a lot of people go clean, they clean up their diet, they go, you know, get out the processed food and they go more plant based.

And I feel better for a time because it's always compared to what so compared to what they're eating before they're doing a lot better But then these plant toxins build up and the nutritional deficiencies start to add up and they start getting very very sick And it's not until they start eating meat again and even cut out the plants that they they improve their health And I see that all the time.

I you know, the vast majority of people who follow me and do a carnivore diet We're plant based Before that, you know, they, but they got so sick, they had to make a change. And they realized that what I was saying made more sense than what they had come to believe. And then they tried it for themselves and that's really the only thing that matters and their health improved.

And so just making that change, eating more whole food and just focusing on fatty meat, not being afraid of it, you're going to do a lot better if you're going to eat plants, I would just switch them up. You know, don't eat the same plant every single day and don't eat a lot of any of them because those toxins will build up.

And so if you, if you switch them around, they have different toxins and all the different, different plants. I would try to be ketogenic. I would try to take out carbohydrates. If you want to do this in a piecemeal fashion, but you want to end up trying carnivore, right? If you just want to clean up your diet, that's, that's how to do it.

You know, if you just want to make big improvements and, and, uh, but not go full bore, Do that if you do want to go carnivore and you can't make that leap and, and go a cold turkey. Well then do that in a stepwise progression, just like I laid out, but have it marked on the calendar when you're going to drop the next thing and the next thing and the next thing.

And no more than four weeks down the chain, there's going to be a date X on the calendar saying today's meat and water and water only. That's it. Right. And you have to give yourself a timeline because if you just say, yeah, yeah, I'll do it eventually. It's never gonna happen. It's like there's people that quit smoking supposedly for 20 years, right?

Oh, yeah. I'm quitting. I'm quitting. I'm quitting. It's like, yeah, but you're smoking more than you did, you know, a couple weeks ago. So it doesn't look like it's going in the right direction. So you need to have, you need to have a clear timeline on what you're doing. I do find that a lot of people, once they hear all of this and they, and they look at the data for themselves and I have a lot of videos, especially my early ones where I'm talking about specific issues and, um, you know, I'm, I'm, I, I post a lot of these studies and people can go and look at the studies themselves and see what they say.

Maybe they disagree with me, you know, stranger things have happened, but. Um, you know, a lot of people say that, you know, they, they was like, Oh, wanted to check on you. And, um, uh, every time you quote something, you're like, you look at the study and like, yeah, actually that says exactly what, what he said it did.

So, you know, once people see that a lot of times they think, okay, I want to, I want to get on this. Well, if that's the case, then strike while the iron's hot. You're never going to be more motivated than you are right then. And so, you know, you can try that. If you live alone or you live with people that are supportive of it, throw out this crap in your house or give it to a food bank or give it to people you don't like and you don't mind seeing poisoned, right?

So like, just get it out of your house though, because if you're trying to quit smoking, the last thing you want to do is leave packs of cigarettes around the house, right? So out of sight, out of mind. And if you have a craving, There's not something right there that can, that can mess you up. So get that stuff out of the house, just go into it and just eat fatty meat, eat fatty meat until it stops tasting good, drink water to thirst, you know, early on, understand that you might need a bit of electrolytes and, uh, you know, join, uh, some sort of group, a free Facebook group.

Look at these different things like zero carb health or zeroing in on health. These people have been doing this stuff for 30 years, some of them. And so, you know, there's tens of thousands of people there that can, that can help you along the way. Right and give you give you pointers and things like that and having that sort of sense of community helps So you don't feel like a weirdo just uh doing this and everybody else is looking at you like, oh my god You're gonna get a heart attack.

You're gonna die, you know um, so that helps but You know The main thing is if once you get to it at some point you're gonna have to go cold trick at some point You're gonna have to start and when you do It's just, it's very simple. It's very intuitive. You just eat fatty meat until it stops tasting good.

You try to get one to two grams of fat to one gram of protein and you adjust how much you need. You, if you start getting loose stools, maybe pull back the amount of fat that you're eating. If you're getting hard, dry, rocky stools, you need to increase the fat that you're eating. And, and that's pretty much it.

It's as important what not to eat as what to eat, because again, meat is good for you. It gives you all the things you need. But other things cause harm. So my rule for myself and anybody who wants to do this as I think is as well as they can is no plants or mushrooms, no sugar or any sweeteners. Nothing artificial and that goes for sauces, seasonings and drinks as well.

So you can test this against your sort of litmus test. Okay, well, what about coffee? Well, coffee is a plant. Okay, well, what about stevia? Well, stevia is a plant and it's a sweetener. So double no. Well, what about honey that comes from bees? Well, it's sugar. You don't want sugar. So, you know, there's all these different sorts of ways you can, you can play it against, you know, what about sorbitol?

Okay, well, that's a sweetener and it's artificial. Again, double no. So you can, you can try all these things. But one of the main things that people. struggle with when they say they, they, they get improvements, but they're not getting all the crazy improvements that they see people getting. And they're like, well, why not me?

Why am I not losing weight? Why am I not getting all these benefits? And, uh, you ask them, well, what are you eating? They're like, Oh, I'm eating bacon. I'm eating beef. I'm eating this. I'm eating that. I mean, okay. No, but what else are you eating? That's not meat. Oh, well, I have coffee with monk fruit sugar in it.

Like, okay, well stop that. You know, or they're having, uh, or dairy. A lot of dairy can be a bit of a bit of a weight loss stall, but artificial sweeteners are a classic one, you know? So, or I remember I was talking to this one guy, really nice guy actually had him on my podcast. And he was making massive improvements reverse diabetes all these sorts of things But he wasn't really getting the weight loss.

He wasn't really getting all these health benefits He'd been doing it for a long time and I kept asking. Okay. Well, what are you eating? What are you eating? He kept he only would tell me about the meat that he was eating And I finally got out of him the guy was having like eight bang energy drinks a day and I was like, oh my god Jesus Okay, so no, like stop that and uh, but it was very difficult for him.

It was very addictive and he said that he had worse, worse, worse withdrawals off of like that artificial sweeteners and those energy drinks than he, than he did off, off any sugar or anything like that. And he said he felt bad for the junkies because he was like, he was actually a prison guard at a detention center and he was just like, I feel so sorry for these guys.

Now you watch them go through withdrawals. And he's like, I, I'm just going through, you know, like artificial sweeteners. And I feel like I'm, you know, like withdrawing off heroin or something is like, this is crazy. And, um, you know, any, any, he was just having difficulty. He's just, Oh, I just, I wish I could get these benefits.

I'm like, I wish I could get the same benefits out of carnivore. And I kept saying, I'm like, yeah, well, you know, try carnivore and you might. You know, he's like, ah, yeah, because if you're, if you're still sucking down eight bang energy drinks, like you're not carnivore yet, you know, carnivore is the, the complete exclusion of anything else except meat and water.

And so, you know, if you're not getting the results that you want, that's your baseline, you get back to there, you know, just beef and lamb, beef, lamb, and water. That's, that's your base. That's the best you'll ever going to do. If you're not doing that, if you're eating anything else, be putting anything else into your body apart from that.

Cut back to that, be honest with yourself, you know, you're only cheating yourself, you know, and so, you know, cut back to just beef and water. And, and see how you go. But that's, um, it's pretty easy. And when, when people do that, they get better. So that's also no eggs, no dairy, no, no, um, yeah. Something like that.

So when I, when I say, when I say meat, I really mean any animal, so not animal product, but animal. So any, any muscle fibers and things like that. Um, so fish is fine. Oh, you want to get wild caught, uh, farmed fish for the most part is fed a bunch of corn and soy and garbage. I have a buddy of mine who's, um, uh, trying to get some, some fish farms that are, uh, actually fed actual fish food, like algae and things like that, as opposed to the corn and soy.

Why the hell would a fish eat soy? It doesn't exist in the ocean. So obviously that's not the right thing for fish to eat and they're not going to be as healthy. And so they're not going to have the right nutrients. They're not going to be as healthy for us. So wild caught fish, um, and you want to try to get pasture raised eggs.

Most people do fine with eggs. Some people have a bit of a problem. Um, people with autoimmune issues are the ones that really need to be. Uh, careful about this and really just stick to beef, lamb and water. The ruminant meats, uh, because the ruminant animals, they, they break down and ferment. The plants first.

And so even when they're eating things, they're not supposed to less of that garbage gets in. They can even apparently break down glyphosate in that, in that fermentation process. So really filters out all the crap, uh, before it gets to you. Um, pigs, chicken, fish can't do that. They're monogastrics. They just absorb things, right?

So if they're eating their natural diet, fine. If they're not. And that's not so fine because that stuff can get into meat. Most people will do fine with it. So any, any animal that you enjoy eating, that you have access to, that makes you feel the best and that you can afford. You can eat those eggs included.

I'm going to have some dairy. It's a bit of a gray area. I'd avoid milk because of the carbohydrate content. It can be pro inflammatory. So some people have problems with that. Again, people with autoimmunity really have to stay away from, from dairy. Um, and even eggs, a lot of them will have problems with eggs, especially egg whites for some reason.

Well, there's actually good reasons for it, but sometimes the yolk is okay. Also, if you're trying to lose weight, dairy is a classic weight loss stall. They have casomorphins in the, in the, in the milk, uh, and milk products. The casomorphins are chemicals that tell the baby animal to drink, drink, drink, drink, drink, drink, drink.

So it gets a lot of nutrients. And so it grows because it's a little baby and little babies are vulnerable and they get killed and eaten by bigger animals, right? So, you know, it's really imperative for them to grow quickly. Okay. And so casomorphins tell them to, to just have a voracious appetite. So it tells us to have a voracious appetite and we overeat and it tends to, um, uh, stall weight loss or even put on weight.

So those are some, those are some tricks, but you know, if you're otherwise healthy, you know, just eat, eat the type of, of meat and animal. that you want that makes you feel good. If you have different problems or sensitivities, you know, just cut back down to just, um, beef, lamb and water and see how you go.

And, um, you know, that's always your baseline. That's always the, the, the home base or, or even better yet, grass fed and finished, uh, beef and lamb, high fat, of course, and, um, Butter seems to be okay for most people. And so if that's, that's where you start and then you can sort of branch out. You try some eggs after 30 days.

Okay. Eggs are fine. I feel great. Great. Go to town on eggs. You know, chicken is fine. Whatever. If you want to eat chicken, I don't particularly, I'm not particularly interested in chicken, but when I have steak available, especially so, um, but you know, like some fish or whatever. So yeah, so whatever, whatever, you know, meat, fish, chicken, you know, that you like, but, uh, the.

Big part is, is what not to eat. That's really important. So basically just do the opposite of what your doctor tells you for the most part. Yeah. Or what they've historically told us. Yeah. The, the final question, which I ask every guest is, uh, what success means to you personally? Oh, well, I mean, yeah, it is very personal to everybody, but you know, uh, you know, I, I don't, I don't really think about things in terms of success, you know, I just, you know, You know, I have, I have a job to do and I just tried to do it and, you know, it's not something that, that's, I don't, you know, I don't know if it's going to be something I could be successful at because it's just, it's always going to be an ever, ever progressing project.

I'm just trying to get people healthy. I'm trying to get this information out to the world. I suppose educating people and getting to a point that, that people understand how to be healthy and not be reliant on the healthcare system. That would be a success. So, you know, I mean, I suppose success, you would be accomplishing your goals, these sorts of things.

To me, I don't think about it in terms of, of that and accomplishing this, that and the other. You know, I'm just living my life. It's, it's just a process. You know, I don't have like, well, I get to this point and then I'm done or whatever. It's just, it's just, it's ever growing. It's ever changing. You know, I have my family, I have my friends, um, I have the people I care about, I have my patients and it's just, it's just day in and day out.

Just living and enjoying life. And I suppose that's success is, is, is being in that situation where you have people around you that, that matter to you and that, that you can help and support. And, and, Enrich their lives in different ways and they can branch out from there. You know, I, there are a lot of people that I talked to whose lives have been so radically changed by the different sorts of interventions that, and in diet and lifestyle that are just so easy and so available to people.

Basically anybody that you know, it's changed their life. And it's, a lot of people, people have literally said that it's saved their life. I mean, I've talked to multiple people who were suicidal and at the point of, of actually going to countries that allow, that had assisted physician, assisted suicide because their life was so difficult.

And then they changed and started doing this. And now they're, they're back to their, their normal happy selves. And so then they're telling that to other people and other people are, and that's spreading like ripple effect from them. And that just grows and grows and grows. So I suppose, you know, that's, that in itself is a success that, you know, just, just that your field of influence and happiness is just sort of growing.

So I don't know, it's a very difficult question. It's a very, it's a, it really makes you sort of think, but, um, you know, I think that would probably be my, you know, what I would consider a success and, and, and myself being successful is, is that. those ripples around me, people getting better and healthier and changing other people's lives and getting them healthy as a result and, um, and affecting more and more people.

And, um, as a result, you can have that message spread across the world. You don't, it doesn't have to be a top down government directive. Um, it's never going to be. But, you know, um, but it doesn't need to be either. And, uh, because the truth will out and, um, if we can get to a point where people just aren't so reliant and 90 percent of the deaths aren't from chronic disease.

And it goes back to that 10 percent that is actually real medicine that, um, that you require doctors for injuries, accidents, you know, infections, all these sorts of things. If we can get that back to being 90 percent of what we deal with. That will be a life's goal dream and success for me. Dr. Chaffee.

This has been an absolute pleasure and thank you so much for coming on and making the time for this. I really appreciate it. Yeah, you're very welcome. Thank you for having me.

That was iconic.