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ICONS UNCOVERED with Stefan Garlicki
ICONS UNCOVERED is where sports, health and performance meet. The podcast is hosted by Pro Mountain biker, Stefan Garlicki. He has conversations with Iconic figures from around the world with a main focus on sports, health and performance. The goal of this podcast is to inspire and educate people to make the right choices to be successful in their sports and careers but also keeping health and longevity in mind. NEW EPISODES EVERY SATURDAY
ICONS UNCOVERED with Stefan Garlicki
Rene Naylor's AMAZING Injury Recovery SECRETS from Springbok Rugby!
Rene Naylor is the official physiotherapist for the South African Springbok rugby team. In this episode, Rene shares her journey from the Cape Flats to working with rugby legends, her approach to injury prevention and recovery, and the cultural shifts within the Springboks that have propelled them to being the best rugby team in the world. Learn about her holistic methods, the impact of diet and sleep on athlete performance, and the evolution of team dynamics towards inclusivity and excellence.
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Rene, thanks for coming on. The better, you know, your athlete, the better you can assist them to perform at their best because not everyone's the same. Rene Naylor is the official physiotherapist for the mighty Springbok rugby team. She is also a speaker and consultant dedicated to women empowerment and advancing sports injury prevention.
Good leaders, not only are they authentic, but they also allow people to make What do you think has been the biggest change that's made the Springboks S team in the world? We had to lose your ego and actually put the team first and then yourself. To be able to move up there you almost then need, okay now we're changing the coach, we're buying new players, now there's this new energy again and now you start winning games and you're getting to nine o'clock.
You want to keep your team actually between 10 and 12. You can only sustain this. What was the feeling like in the change room before they went up against New Zealand in the final? It was a good feeling. I spend a lot of time educating people about different recovery strategies. Basic stuff, like sleep, so they know they need to get 10 hours.
What sort of diet and supplements have you found to be most helpful in the healing process? So the first thing I would say is
Right. Rene, thanks for, thanks for coming on. Really appreciate it. Um, I wanted to jump straight in, um, and ask you, what impact do you hope to have in your career? That's, that's quite a big one. Big question. So for me, I think thus far, if I look, look back at my career, because I mean, there's been so much talk about me retiring, when you say retirement, it's almost as if your, your future's behind you.
I would like to have had an impact on young girls. And. Making young girls believe in their dreams and feel they can actually achieve what they set out to do and that they can, you know, be on a, on, on the world stage. That, that's important for me in terms of more professionally as a physiotherapist. Um, I think that, you know, my power lies really in injuries, injury prevention and injury management.
So you, you would have liked to have left a mark or an impact in, you know, the athletes, you know, that I've worked with in their lives, in terms of getting them back onto the pitch and to, yeah, I think, you know, having a small impact in that process. Is massive for me, having witnessed disastrous injuries, on the beach.
Um, yeah. And then, and, and who are you, who is Renee Nla? So, Renee Nala comes from the Cape Flats. I was born and bred in Beha. I've had a very rich and, you know, blessed career so far, working as a physiotherapist for, for 30 years. And working with the, with the Springboks for 16, it's been, I feel quite humbled to have been amidst, you know, legends, you know, being with the Springboks national team.
It obviously started off with the club rugby side when I, when I qualified. And I worked in, in club rugby and in provincial rugby for 10 years before I actually moved on to the spring box in 2008. And I've worked in other codes, little bits of right of cricket, but mainly with rugby players. At club level, amateur level, school level, and, and obviously elite level, international level.
And, um, yeah, I'm feeling very blessed to have had a rich career in elite sport. And, uh, what was, you know, what was your motivation and, and why did you end up going into health and into rugby specifically? I think specifically rugby because I enjoyed the sport, I would say to be a therapist or professional wanting to engage in sport, choose a sport you enjoy because you're going to be in a lot of training sessions, you're going to be in a lot of matches, and you must enjoy it.
And for me, I remember sitting in the 95 World Cup, sitting, At new lens, watching a match and thinking to myself, how amazing it must be to be on the pitch or in the changing with the athletes prior to the match. And I think that's sparked my interest in, Getting involved in, in rugby specifically, you know, just actually joined the sport.
And, and I think that, you know, my knowledge about the game, I've never, ever played rugby, but my knowledge about the game has definitely grown since those early days of being nearly as I mean, I can just imagine, uh, what it must be like to, I mean, I think it's amazing how this game that, I mean, in all, um, transparency, I'm not the diehard rugby fan, but obviously, you know, when you're watching the world cup and, and the big games with the spring box and stuff, I mean, I feel, I feel like it brings everyone together.
From all walks of life. And I think that's quite an amazing thing. How this one group of people playing a game can can bring the whole nation, uh, you know, to together. I think that's that's an incredible, uh, It's an incredible thing that not many, not many other things can, you know, that not many other things can do.
Yes, it's been very powerful. It's been a powerful symbol for, for South Africa. And I mean, I come from a time when I joined the Springboks in 2008, when, um, It was, you know, there was a different culture. It was one, you know, one culture that was dominant, just one culture that was dominant and you almost assimilated to it and, and saw if you could fit in, cause you were so excited.
To be part of the brand. And I think that so much has changed since then, that it's so inclusive and it's so dynamic and it's ever changing. And I didn't think I'd see it in my lifetime that we'd be totally inclusive and diverse. And that everyone feels they can be themselves in that environment, which is, I think the secret why everyone can perform, you know, at your best is when you actually can be yourself.
And, and that's been a powerful lesson, which I think can be. Taken to any team environment, you know, whether it's, whether it's your home or whether it's in your own business, corporate environment, I think the secret is really to make people feel that they can be themselves. And from, I mean, from your perspective, you mentioned obviously the, you know, how inclusive it is now and, and in the last few years, I mean, the, the Springboks have been on an absolute, Um, and I mean, you've been there through, you know, for, for many years now, um, more than a decade.
And so from your perspective, what do you think has been the biggest, uh, you know, change that's, that's made them now, in my opinion, the best team in the world? Well, I think that it started, you know, when Rossi actually said, let's, let's analyze why we number seven in the world at the time in 2018, when he started, and we sort of came to the conclusion that we'd all become a bit entitled.
And, We're probably taking more from the game than we were giving and taking more, you know, from the, from the team environment. And I think, I think Peter Steph actually mentioned it this week when he was named player of the year, he said, you know, we, we put the team first. So we had to lose your ego and actually put the team first and then yourself.
And I think that was something that we all took ownership of and actually had to check each other out on. And it didn't matter whether you were the physio or. Or whether you were the captain of the team or whether you had had a hundred caps or whether you had three caps, we were all sort of united in this.
Let's not be entitled. Let's, let's put the team first, see how we can put our own needs aside. And I think that was sort of the foundation of it. And also making sure that there was no hierarchy, that you better than you, you can, you can say something you can't. We all wear power to say. What, what we, what was important to us.
And I think that having taken ownership and feeling quite empowered to everyone could have an impact. In what in the success of the team makes everyone work hard, you know, because you know that your small little bit is also making you successful. So whether you know, uh, whether you are starting lineup, whether you're on the bench, you're having an impact.
And I think, I mean, it says it all in 2019. Reserve bench became, you know, you know, everyone spoke about it. Everyone still speaks about it, the bomb squad. And, you know, if you look at traditional teams, no one wants to be on the bench. You know, no one wants to be the reserve. You want to start. And we created an environment that, You know, if you're on the bench, if you are not playing even, even if you're not playing, you'd have an impact.
You'd be part of the success because if you're not playing, be the opposition for the week. So you have to study the opposition, understand what they do on the pitch, their mannerisms, whether they pick their, whatever they do, and be that for the starting lineup. So in that way, it was, it was really a mastermind of, of Rossi to introduce that into the team and getting everyone aligned behind it was, is probably the most important role of a leader.
If you don't get people aligned behind it, even brilliant vision that you may have. It will never work. And, and I think that is, you know, we were successful and I think, I mean, we, I was also successful in 2009, uh, we won the British Irish line series with Peter de Villiers and, and they, again, I think he was excellent in managing the fact that he was coming into a team that had just won a world cup.
And when you come in and you have to manage the players that have been hugely successful and know how to bring them together under your leadership and make them feel part of it. And that is what I think he did very well. But, you know, teams are evolving all the time and you have to evolve with the team.
And with what's happening around you to be successful. And I think changing that whole hierarchy, making it completely diverse, but also allowing everyone that's come in from different languages, different religions, different backgrounds to actually feel part of it was ultimately the success of the team.
I think that's, you know, it's interesting that you mentioned that, you know, how you're able to bring people together, especially after you've won. Um, already, because I think that was for me, the most impressive thing for them to be able to back up, you know, the, the world cup and win again, um, you know, and make it two in a row, because that I feel is the hardest thing to do, because once you're on top, I feel it's very easy to become sort of, you know, big headed or sort of just think, ah, you know, we, we've got this sort of thing.
And I think you almost have to reinvent yourself again, even though you are. Um, you know, you are at the top to be able to take the team and, and really take it to that next level is a very hard thing to do. Um, and I think that, yeah, that was extremely impressive. Um, I can comment a little bit about that in that, um, Jacques, you know, took the reins from, you know, after the 2019 World Cup and.
He, he often spoke about the concept of the performance clock, you know, we 12 o'clock, you are winning the world cup and then at one o'clock. You know, what they say can happen is that you now assume you have the formula and you come become a little bit arrogant and you just cut and paste and you think it would work, but then it doesn't work because all the other teams are working just as hard and even harder to beat you and to be successful.
And, and then, you know, two, three o'clock, you basically now starting to lose games and people are becoming disillusioned. They're threatening to fire coaches and this is what often happens even in football and eventually you get to six o'clock and you basically are not winning a single game and they say that to be able to move up there you almost then need okay now we're changing the coach and we're changing new players we're buying new players bringing new players in and now there's this new energy again and now you start winning games and you're getting to nine o'clock and You want to keep your team actually between 10 and 12.
And the say is that you can only sustain it if you become innovative, creative, and you have some changes that happen. Keep your DNA, keep your core strength, but. Don't stop the creativity and the innovation and don't stop challenging yourself. And that's what I try to do in my role as a physio through the years, challenge myself and question myself.
Am I being innovative? Am I tried everything? That I can in a given, you know, injury to, to prove it or to get better, to try and stay on top of your game as they say, I've actually, you know, I completely, completely understand. Um, because, you know, even in my own career, uh, as a mountain biker, I've experienced that myself when I've, um, you know, I've been performing at my best and thinking, you know, You know, I won the national championship and then I think, Oh, perfect.
You know, I know exactly how to do this and you just copy paste and you do it again next year. And then next year you don't win. And suddenly you think, you know, what's going on. Um, cause you, you did, you did everything the same, but obviously everyone else is, it's working hard as hard or harder, you know, as you said to, Um, you know, it's it's a to to catch up.
Um so you need to keep changing things, whether that's in your training, your you know your your diet, your everything needs to keep evolving to, you know, to keep moving forward. Otherwise you become stagnant. Um and I think that's it took me at least a long time to figure that out. Um, so it's I think with the team that's been impressive to see.
Your, your, um, your role, I mean, now you're involved with the management with the team as well, right? Well, I'm basically physiotherapist of the team and yeah, that's been my role since 2008 up until now. Um, so what does your, your role look like? And also what does it look like for the team? Say, Pre game, during game and, and post game.
Cause I think that's, you know, we always see them come out on the pitch and everything's all hunky dory and they look good, but, uh, you know, I'm sure there's, uh, you know, a lot of, a lot of prep and also recovery that goes on after that. Yes. It's interesting because sometimes my family, even before they came on tour with me, thought that all I do is actually run on the pitch and a little bit of ice and, and actually most of the work happens between matches where you're actually treating players and assessing players to make sure that they are fit enough to, to play or to, to make the call with the guys going to be able to play.
That's, I think that. Just, you know, pre match is where you almost want to be the The few days prior to the match, you almost want to be tapering off your treatments because guys are almost focused. It's getting to the end of the week. They are at their best. They, they do not need as much hands on management and treatment.
And then you go on onto match day and match day is where you really are quite busy from early morning. I've got my set routine and I try and stick to my routine in terms of prepping Everything before I start with players, which is usually midday, if we're having a five o'clock game. So usually four or five hours before the match starts strapping guys.
And that takes quite a lot of few hours at the hotel. And then when you get to the stadium, you spend finish off your strapping, you do your last bit of strapping and giving guys whatever else they need. And there's quite a, someone asked me yesterday, how, how does it feel in that changing? And I said, well, there's a focus and there's a tension.
Often people would say. That have been in the team who'd say, how are the guys feeling? And I'd say, you know, the guys are really focused for this one. I can see, it feels like a final, it feels like they are totally psyched up. And sometimes you don't always get that feeling and you worry. You think, gosh, you know, and I do believe that knowing your athlete.
The better you know your athlete, the better you can assist them to perform at their best. Because not everyone's the same. Some players, when I'm strapping them, don't mind me talking about what their role is going to be in the game. And what I think is going to be important for them in the first few minutes.
Whereas other players would be totally irritated I, as a physiotherapist, I'm talking about a game plan and about the pressure in handling the aerial pressure or the defense game, etc. Whereas other players would welcome that and would actually like, some players would say to me, I want to hear you. I want to hear your energy on the side.
That motivates them. Whereas for other players. They do not want to hear the physiotherapist. And that's, that is just knowing your players, their preferences, what they like to strap at the hotel, what they want to strap at the match, at the, at the, at the stadium. We, who wants to be done early when they're strapping, who wants to be done as close to the start of the game.
It's all small little things that, that often make it to, you know, and then finally, obviously I have a role, um, on the pitch, which is more decision making a box. Injuries that, that happened when niggles players are feeling to communicate that to the coach and to the manager, et cetera. And you mentioned that you get this feeling in the, in the change rooms.
Um, can you, you know, can you tell, um, majority of the time, can you tell when they're going to win the match? And, and also what was the feeling like in the change room? Before they went up against New Zealand in the final. It was a good feeling. It, I can never tell, never tell, you know, you sometimes with this team, you don't, you don't know until the last minute, it was just as, you know, you feel the energy and you feel that they're completely focused.
And one of the things that I've learned about leadership and about good leadership is that good leaders. Not only are they authentic, but they also allow people to make mistakes in their team. And they allow people to make mistakes in the game. And they will try, especially if a guy is playing his first test game, you're allowed to make mistakes.
What you're not allowed to do is to go into the game without intensity and without putting your body on the line and actually really showing that you were true warrior and you'll do anything to make the team succeed. If you miss a kick, if you make a mistake with the game plan or move or something goes wrong, that's okay.
Okay. And I think that we always try to keep that atmosphere that, you know, be focused for the game, be prepared, make sure you've done everything you can to prepare for the game. Obviously there's certain things that you're not going to be able to control. Decisions of a ref, the bounce of the ball, the weather conditions, anything, you know, whether you get an injury or not.
And. Those are things you can't control, but we, you know, you almost expect players to focus on the things that all of us to focus on things you can control. And, you know, you mentioned obviously injuries and things there, um, and making mistakes, um, you know, what's been the, the most difficult moment for you, um, while you've been working with the team, you know, uh, You know, whether it's been a big loss or, you know, someone getting injured or, you know, what's been that, uh, that sort of hard time that you guys have been able to, to overcome?
So, so for me, I mean, there's been, there's lots of difficult moments where you take maybe a calculated risk and you've taken a player onto the pitch. And you, you know, that they've got an eagle and you don't want the situation to happen where they play for a few minutes and then they say, Oh my gosh, my knee's aching or my ankle's not feeling great.
So when you make those calls, those are sometimes. The nights that you don't see people, you worry about that. And, um, when some, when things don't work out according to the plan, you know, you, you plan for players to be ready for a particular match and they just don't look like they are really. And you have to go with the, you know, bear of bad news to the coach and say, sorry, the guy's not, not ready to play.
I mean, those are the hard, you know, things. Things that you have to do, or sometimes you put yourself under pressure. No one else is actually, I've never felt that coaches are demanding you to get a guy back onto the pitch and he's not really fit or put a guy on the field and he's actually injured. I've never felt that kind of pressure.
I felt that I've always had a good trust with my coaches. And sometimes it takes time to build up trust, but that once I've made a decision, they would trust my decision. And. But the thing is always that you feel pressure sometimes, like with Sia, for example, when he got injured just before the World Cup, there was no pressure that the coaches were saying, we don't care, but he's going to play.
It was more pressure on yourself to give the player the best opportunity to participate in a World Cup that you know he's worked hard for. And the same happens when a player gets injured in the start of a World Cup and you know that he's. works a lot to get into the World Cup. So if he gets an injury in that first game or a warmup game, you try your utmost to test, can he, can I maybe get him back?
For example, in 2019, we had Trevor McCartney and Jesse Creel that had injuries in the first game and. Both of it looked serious and there was definitely, we're not sure if these guys are going to be able to stay here, if they're going to have to fly home. And I remember saying to Rasi, just give me a day or two just to see, because I knew that they'd planned and worked so hard.
Horrible moment when you realize after the day and a half or two you've done the scans and you've treated and you've assessed and you've tested, you know, it's not going to happen. And you have to sort of, you know, make that call and tell the player, tell the coach, the player usually knows, but those are the horrible times.
And what are the, you know, first of all, what are the most, that you see, the most common injuries. And I think for the average person as well, what is, what's amazing is with the injuries, how quickly sometimes the players come back, you know, compared to, I know with myself, I've had a fair few injuries and, uh, you know, normal people, they get given a timeline, whether it's six weeks, 12 weeks, you know, And then you see a player get back on the field, you know, in three weeks and you think to yourself, how, you know, how, um, what are the, so what are the common injuries and, and what are the things that you guys do, um, to, you know, to be able to get the players back that quickly?
Often I have to explain this to my clients at my practice because they'll come to me and they'd expect that, my gosh, I saw Siakalisi got back so quickly off his ACL and I have to explain and say, Siakalisi. Worked on his body for three to four hours daily. And if you're prepared to give three to four hours a day and be totally committed to it, then you could possibly also achieve it if the surgery went well and there were no complications and, and you passed all your, your tests.
Cause you know, at each phase post surgery, you have markers of what you want your, your, your plans to achieve. And. Couldn't go to any stage without passing the one stage or passing all the functional tests that he had to get through. So, I think that now we do get players back faster because we spend more time investing in the injury.
I find that that helps a lot. So I always say to clients at my practice, you must remember, I am only seeing you once every three or four days, once a week, maybe you can come next week, whereas my athlete that I'm touring with, I see him for breakfast. I see him at lunch time. I see him at dinner time. I see him before he goes to bed.
So you will get at least three or four treatment sessions on tour. And in between that, he's also working on his own, you know, doing his own recovery, being on a game ready, doing some icing, putting on a complex unit, doing his own exercises, and he's getting a massage. therapy as well. And then he's getting hands on physio from me and be doing some rehab in the gym.
So there's so much intervention before you go to bed. Let's just strap it up again and let's see what else we can put on before you go to bed. So there's so much intervention as opposed to just. Once a week treatment, and I think that also plays a role. And then we've obviously had advances in medicine that has helped us get a muscle to activate faster than we did back in the day when I qualified over 30 years ago, there was this.
You know, and also the surgery interventions are, have improved. So you have less precautions, whereas before they'd say, no, you can't touch this athlete for another two weeks before you can start seeing him. Whereas now the day after the surgery, I can start with my management that also makes a difference.
So yes, it's a lot of factors and everyone's different. Every play is different. All of us experience pain differently based on our own. Past experiences and and that also influences our healing and are there you know Is there anything or are there any things that you have access to that? Have a big impact that maybe the average person wouldn't be able to you know To to use any sort of biohack things, you know, which would help with injury recovery Whether that's I don't know red light therapy or just doing ice baths or hyperbaric oxygen chambers You know, do you guys use any of that sort of thing?
Yes, we, we, we do use those interventions. I think, um, what has worked very well with acute and chronic injuries is high powered laser, which has helped, you know, for pain management and inflammation and even chronic inflammation and, and tendinopathies. So that has been a game changer. Also complex units, because you can actually get an activation of a muscle that's been inhibited fairly quickly.
And you can, you know, strengthen that muscle from early stage, even if the athlete is not allowed to wait there because often in the past, if you can't wait there, you have to wait and wait and wait, and that muscle is wasting and wasting away and within three weeks, it's gone. Whereas now you can put the complex unit on and that electromagnetic stimulation.
is already starting to, to get the muscle memory to, to activate that muscle. And so that's been, those are, those have really been the game changers for me in terms of physiotherapy and rehabilitation. Yeah, that's, that sounds like it would have been a game changer for me, to be honest, because I, I've seen how quickly, um, you know, within, after you have surgery, when I had surgery on my hips and within a few weeks, your, your leg muscles are just, Gone.
It's actually incredible. Um, it's sort of hard to believe, um, how quickly your muscles disappear. And, uh, you know, I was not weight bearing for, um, more than six months, um, which was, uh, obviously if you could have had something like that, which could have prevented a bit of that, it would have probably halved my recovery time.
Yes, definitely. What are the, what are the most, the most common injuries that you actually see with the guys, uh, in games? Is that the most common injuries? Yes, yes. So, the one thing about rugby, being a contact sport, you can get injuries from head to toe, literally. Okay. You can even get internal injuries and you know, it's can be even rips and, and you, you, the statistics tells us that mostly it's lower limb, it's the legs that get injured and the joints of the legs and the muscles of the legs that are the most common.
But we also see concussion, neck injuries. Lower back injuries, you know, rib fractures, you know, um, shoulder dislocations, these hand injuries we've had just as, you know, in the end of last year, suddenly we had quite a few guys that had injuries of the thumbs and, you know, fractures of the hand and tendon tears that needed surgery.
So, so anything in rugby can literally get, get injured. Yeah, I would. I would not want to be, want to be running at the front line. That's for sure. Um, you, uh, you mentioned, uh, you know, you do obviously tests with the players and stuff when they've been injured and things, um, I read something about, uh, uh, musculoskeletal test.
What, what is that? And, and, uh, Uh, how's that? Uh, how is that used is so a musculoskeletal screening. I usually spend 45 minutes to an hour with the player physio and you would go through a battery of tests because we almost want to give the place injury risk profile to say, We, based on this assessment, we feel you at higher risk for these injuries of these areas of your body.
So we'd make it, I usually make like little red marks on it. So to say it's your right knee, you're at high risk to get an injury of your right knee or of your left knee. Hamstrings. So it's very specific or of your, if, if we find, and this will be based on a battery of tests, there'll be a number of tests that we do to test the hamstrings, to test the ankle strength, to test the lower back and the neck.
And, you know, so we check the range movement, how much flexibility is then it's really in test to look at the balance between flexibility and muscle strength, and also to look at symmetry. And then also taking into account the position you play, because obviously what strength is required in the neck from a front row player to a backline player is different.
And We take all of those things into account and then drop the profile and give the player some idea of what he could do to, to minimize that risk, reduce that risk. Obviously, injury risk is also dependent on your training load and your, your match load, how much time you are. And, and one can balance that plus with what an area would be at higher risk.
If you actually went into that critical zone of training too much. How, how often do you do a test like that with a plant? I like to do that test at least once a season. How does your, um, you know, obviously, Chatted a lot about the team and stuff. Um, would you use this type of test on a normal person? And how does your approach differ, you know, when you're treating a regular client, um, versus treating a player?
Yes. It's, it's interesting for me because I've, from a very young age as a physiotherapist, I've, I've always, I've even told my locals at my first private practice, I said, you treat everyone as if they're world cup winning captain. I think everyone is if you're giving them the best treatment and try and take it as far as you can.
Obviously people can't maybe come as often as as a Elite athlete, and they may not be able to put the amount of time and energy into it, but you try your best to get them to feel that they are getting the best treatment. So, but if I'm doing a screening, I take into account the needs of the clients. So if you are not an elite athlete, but you are working corporate, you're doing a lot of traveling, you're a CEO.
So then, and you're a weekend warrior, you still want to be good at. whatever sport you're engaging with, it's cycling or running or, um, playing a pedal or whatever your sport is, I'll take that into account and, and give you guidelines and norms that are appropriate for that. Taking into account the level, the If you are playing competitively, what level are you playing at, or whether you are a school boy and you're in a growth spurt, so all of those things would probably influence it.
And also depending on the person's personality, what, how much information they want and how much information they want to use to improve. Because some people are really hungry to understand their bodies better and to look at how they can improve things. Whereas for other people, they just want to go out and have fun and don't worry about, they're not interested in that.
And if they get a little niggle again or an injury, they'll just come back and have some physio. What, um, and what sort of practical advice could you give to people, um, That, you know, they might not be a professional athlete, but they want to improve their performance and also, you know, do things that are, that's going to keep them healthy and sort of injury free.
Uh, you know, what sort of advice would you, would you give to them to, to help stay, stay doing what they love? So, so what, what we do at our practice is we try to look at it holistically. And I, I try to address all areas of the, the person's life or client's life. So you would look at what do they want to engage in physically to be mobile, keeping themselves moving and for their own wellbeing.
And usually it's something that they enjoy doing. And you then balance that with, is there recovery involved and what can they do for recovery? Because I don't think often the weekend warrior understands how they need to recover to be able to go and do it again in three or four days time. The same event or to do it every day.
And so I spend a lot of time these days, educating people about different recovery strategies that, that, and just basic stuff like sleep. And then, and then of course the massive area of nutrition and you look at whether I'm just going to give the person some simple tips, if I'm going to refer them to a dietitian, that's going to work out a detailed plan.
And, and those, you know, those are the things that are important for me. I often like to look, I don't. You know food first before supplementation But if a person has basically had a bone injury and they are looking at A risk of non union you'd look at specific stuff for the bone, etc You know, so you give them advice on on on what supplements they could take to You know help their recovery and their healing and what you mentioned obviously now with the with the diet and supplements what sort of?
um You know, when you're recovering from an injury, specifically a bone injury, what sort of diet and supplements have you found to be, you know, most, most helpful in the healing process? So for me, um, besides bone injury, the first thing is just let's talk injury. So the first thing I would say is anti inflammatory foods.
So foods that help with bone injury. Helping the inflammation. So it's your tumerics and your antioxidant foods, your super foods. So, so you always go food first before you go to supplementation, because I always say, if you're eating properly, you're already winning and gaining something and, and use the supplements as an add on.
And then if it's bone, you're obviously going to look at your vitamin D and you're going to look at your calcium, but then you're also going to look at and make sure that that's, that's healthy. absorption is good. So you're going to look at, is, is this client's smoking for example, you know, going to the nicotine's actually going to influence that calcium absorption, et cetera.
So, um, and is the person allowed to do some weight bearing and mobility and, And action to assist the bone in, in, in the healing process. So I, when there's something very specific, I refer to a dietitian. You can give someone some advice, but you always say, listen, and you know, I prefer you to see a dietitian that can actually look at your full diet plan and see where you're falling short.
And that could influence your healing and also person's lifestyle. I found with, even with my athletes, they sometimes don't have time. So they'd come to me and they'll do their rehab in the morning and I'll chapter check. Have you had breakfast? Oh, I forgot about breakfast. I'll go and see the dietician.
If we in camp, if we're not in camp, if you're at my practice, I would say, right, then let's order some protein smoothie or something. You're going to have to do something. We're going to do a gym session now, and you haven't had breakfast, you know, so sometimes it's simple things. And then obviously how much hours sleep you get and what is the quality of that sleep?
And how do you feel when you wake up in the morning? All of those things become important in terms of healing. I mean, obviously there's been a lot of, uh, you know, I know you're not a dietitian per se, but I'm sure you would have seen, um, you know, through, through the years what's potentially helped or not helped, but has there been any sort of impact, you know, with, uh, whether someone's plant based or, uh, meat intake, um, you know, does that have any effect, um, on, on the healing process?
Yes, I think that the, the, the, probably the ideal is to have a varied diet that includes your protein, which is most, you know, most of our athletes are, um, meat based, that you're having enough protein daily based on your training load. And that is complimented with your vegetables and your fruit. So it's varied.
It shouldn't just be one component. That's, that's usually what's advocated. However, there are always exceptions to that. And that is why I think it's always important to say, I'm not a dietician just because I know, Oh, this is a good option as a snack. After you've trained doesn't make me a dietitian because a dietitian I've seen them at work.
They look at the weights of the athlete. They look at the exact training that they've done based on their GPS and then work out what snack they should have. Before they, they may kneel off to the training. So that is very scientific and that is actually what I find, you know, the optimal way to recap and to enhance your performance if it's based on that.
So everyone's going to have a different amount of protein that they need an amount of carbs. You know, your, your front row do not have to look like they've got a six pack. It's not about that. It's about the performance and how they. Their bodies to perform in the, what is expected from them on the pitch.
And that is the role of the, of, of a, of a dietitian in a team setup. Obviously, if it's a person that's just a weekend warrior, you, you then take into account what their goals are. I've seen, that's amazing. The impact of, you know, protein intake, um, with, with recovery and also muscle growth and things, and obviously, which is very important for, for a rugby player.
Um, and I think most people are eating far too little protein without realizing it. Um, and for me personally, when I up my protein intake, it was just, I always thought I was a person that couldn't build any muscle. I mean, not that I'm anywhere near rugby player, but, um, I always found it extremely difficult.
Until I started eating more protein and suddenly it was like such a game changer. Um, and I think, yeah, the people around me as well, I'm always telling them to eat, you need to eat more protein, especially if they're doing a lot of sport and training. But I think people are quite reluctant. Um To, to, to increase that.
And there was, yeah, they're happy to have a bowl of pasta, but don't want to have a steak. Exactly. And, and the interesting thing is that our relationship with food is such a powerful relationship that starts at such a young age. And I found when you introduced a dietitian into a team environment, it takes a lot of hard work to understand what an athlete's mindset is, because if an athlete's achieved.
To a certain level on a particular program, that is just what he's done from how he grew up at home and what he ate before he went to a club game. And he feels, listen, I can't change this. This is how I've done it for 10 years, five years. And I'm actually now a springboard player. And it takes a lot of.
Understanding the player first and then being able to get a player to say, Oh, well, let me try this and see if I do actually take a little bit of carbs and some protein, what impact it has. And. It's interesting for me how, you know, for, you know, when it comes to diet, all of us are very convinced we know what works best for our bodies.
We probably do in some way, but sometimes you have to have an open mind and just take in a little bit of extra input. From someone that has a better understanding of science. I mean, I myself, you know, you have to listen to, to them and say, Oh, that, that actually does make sense, you know, because we often mosquito food.
Yeah, no, I think it's quite easy these days. And there's so much information. About which diet is best. And you know, you should be, you should be plant based, you should be keto, you should be carnivore, you should be, you know, and I think it's quite difficult for people, uh, to, to really know, you know, what's best.
And there's so many opposing views as well as to what's good and what's not good. And you, you also touched on the, the, you know, you'd emphasize the recovery for. For the average person. Um, what strategies, you know, specifically would you recommend to people to sort of enhance their recovery from, from day to day?
So from day, if you're training every day and you don't have access to the high end, uh, recovery methods, like recovery pumps, That you can put in your legs in a massage, which is what our athletes do. They can get a massage every day. They can line the recovery pumps. They're having an ice bath because you know, recovery is individualized.
Now I mean, back in the day, like everyone has to get into the ice bath and everyone has to do this. Now it's not compulsory. You, you have to manage. What works best for you. So while one guy will swear by getting a massage and recovery pumps, but not getting to an ice bath where another guy says, well, if I get into an ice bath, that's the best for me.
If you are at home and you and, you know, training. daily or three times a week, really hard training, then you have to look at, is it, is a massage the best option for me? Oh, I can't really afford to go for a massage. Can I afford to have a massage gun? Can I afford to then, then I don't have a massage gun.
So I then use a roller or I use a rolling pin to massage. Massage my, my legs, or I do active recovery, which is stretching or just being on a, on a bike, getting into some water, into a pool, getting into the seawater. So, you know, you work out what works best for you and try out different methods, but the basic stuff that stays the same for everybody is sleep, sleep.
And, you know, are you refueling your body properly so that your body can recover? And are you getting enough sleep to recover? And then, you know, you can have all the other add ons in addition to that. I think sleep is something that has been largely overlooked, um, for a lot of people, including myself. Um, and I think that this, this, uh, modern age of, you need to work harder and more is better, and, you know, it's sort of, um, It's quite easy to fall into the trap that, you know, just, just get by with minimal sleep every day.
But I think not just from a performance point of view, but also from a health and longevity point of view, um, sleep is, is maybe the most important thing. In my opinion, a hundred percent, it is a massive component. And I think it's a, it's a very tricky aspect for, for health professionals working in elite sport.
I find that we, we work very long hours and we almost become. Just our bodies to minimal sleep and, you know, a normal eight hours, six and five hours becomes fairly normal for, for, for most of us working in the environment. And for the athlete, it also sleep becomes a huge component that's tricky. Post matches, post training, because there's, we all know, before you do a big exam, you've got butterflies, you're feeling a little bit excited, you don't sleep well the night before, it's the night that you must have your, your best sleep.
So sleep hygiene is something that you have to do a lot of education about. About what environment you need to create to have good sleep. What sleep routine do you need to create? We, we have things in, in the team environment where we'd have one place, okay, I'm making the chamomile tea for everyone. You know, the music in the physio room must be, you know, relaxing now because they, they're preparing for bed, et cetera.
Uh, you know, Those are, those are the healthy things. And of course, screens spending lots of time on a screen before you go to bed. So all simple, basic stuff, as opposed to just going to a sleep ergogenic medication to, to enable you to sleep, obviously, that is something that is used when there's jet lag involved.
Yeah. Is that, uh, I've, I've, I've experienced that myself. Um, is that something, you know, with the sleep. Is there an optimal, um, you know, sort of sleep that's been observed for the players? Is that's been something that's been looked at? So like having eight hours or nine hours, you know, because you hear of, of these sort of outliers where you hear this professional athlete sleeps for 12 hours a night or, you know, something like that, you know, has that, has that, uh, been looked at with the players?
It hasn't been scientifically looked at by a sleep specialist, but the sleep is monitored and they do record their sleep. And is it who's not sleeping well and why is that? Is that because they, we, remember we are sleeping in different environments every week, which also makes a difference. You have a different mattress, different pillows, so, you know, they may have a very noisy person next door or their roommate may have changed and the roommate habits just influence them.
So all of those things we'll take into account, but I'm blessed in that my athletes often know what works best for them. So they know they need to get 10 hours and 10 hours. Your, if they get their 10 hours, sometimes it's crazy for me. And some of them just, I have to get the eight hours and they get, you know, how many full cycles they get in that period.
So, yes, but I think that one is, you know, often overlook sleep, but if you look at an elite athlete, that's really performing optimally, sleep is a huge component of his recovery and his performance. I, um, yeah, I, I, I've seen that as well. I mean, anyone actually, if you think about it, most people sort of overlook it, but when you, when you have a nice long sleep, you feel your mood is better.
Your concentration is better. Your, you know, you have more energy. Everything is just better, but. But sort of a lot of people just overlook that and just think, Oh, I'm just feeling good today, you know, um, or I'm feeling not good today, but you don't realize, Oh, well, and, and another thing is that people say, Oh, but I, I go to bed at, at X time, I go to bed at 10 and I get up at six.
So I'm sleeping eight hours. I'm like, well, not necessarily you in bed for eight hours, but that, You might be awake for two of those hours. Um, you know, and, uh, I actually do, I'm assuming that players would use some sort of, um, you know, sleep tracker like whoop or something like that. Uh, I know I use a ring called aura ring.
Yes. I've got my ring. Oh yeah. My ultra ring has made a big difference to me. Yeah. Cause I can't sleep with a watch. So this is, you know, see my percentage sleep and, and, and what's, what's happening with my sleep cycle. But yeah, it's, um, it's, it's very important. And, and often, you know, I, I say that if you feeling that the world's Fighting with you, you probably, you probably need to sleep or if you think you fighting with the world, you probably need to eat.
Uh, yeah, it's funny you mentioned that. I actually just did last week. I did a three day fast water fast. Um, which is obviously from a performance point of view, not what you want to do, but I feel like, um, yeah, every once in a while, it's good to have a bit of a cleanse and, uh, definitely I've experienced that when you want to, you get a bit hangry, so to speak, angry with the world, eat something.
Um, Renee, there's a, there's a couple of questions which I ask each guest. Um, the first one is what does success mean to you? So that has changed over the years. And I think as I'm getting older, success. For me is, is really being happy and feeling content and satisfied that I've done my best. That's a nice, simple way to put it.
I think, yeah, it's interesting to hear people's, uh, people views because some people answer with, Oh, I think it's financial success or helping people. Or so it's, yeah, it's very interesting, but I agree with that. Uh, I think happiness is definitely top of the list. Um, and the last question is, um, if there was one thing that the average person that's listening to this could take away from this, that they could change in their life today, um, something simple that they could change today that would have the biggest impact on their health and performance.
What would that be? Health and performance, I think, gosh, I mean, I've, I've mentioned so many things. I think that because we've, we've just ended off now with sleep and we've spoken about nutrition, I think the, those are simple things that you could look at how you could, you know, Make sure you are getting enough sleep and getting enough nutrition if you are exercising.
I'm assuming that the listeners are people that exercise and enjoy exercise and you don't want to stop moving. So I just think with those two other aspects, you can ensure that you can exercise harder. And you can exercise longer because you, you know, we all want consistency. That will do it. Renee, thank you so much.
It has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much. It's been, it's, you know, thank you for allowing me to share my story. If you guys enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe. And to see more episodes, click the link right up here. That was iconic.